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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class319118}}
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    All Skill Damage vs Tier-Stacking Gloves, Which one is better?

    Author's Foreword:
    A lot of players have been wondering if the All Skill Damage gloves are better than the Stacking ones, and I thought it would be quite useful to write a guide that explains how they work. However, the more I wrote, the harder I found trying to only talk only about the gloves as I had to talk about other concepts that weren't necessarily common knowledge. Because of this, I decided to extend it to how some specific stats work in the game and how you can use this knowledge to make decisions in the future for your gear.

    This was quite a difficult guide to write because I'd never written something this mathematically extensive while also trying to make it as easily readable as possible as I know that for most people, seeing a huge wall of text and numbers can easily make them tune out. Hopefully you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed the challenge of writing it. If there's anything that needs clarification or is incorrect, please let me know immediately by commenting below. I still have to figure out the flow of this piece, so I'll be editing it from time to time so it flows better.

    If you're after the explanation for which gloves are better, kindly skip straight to point number 3.

    With that out of the way, let's begin.

    FAQs

    Q1. Isn't this the same as normalisation?
    A1. No, it isn't. If you've got say 50% Bonus critical damage, you will be doing 2x damage if you land a critical hit, and not some lower number. This isn't like Critical Rate or Maximise where you need to socket (for example) more than 80% of that stat to achieve 80% of that stat. When you've got 36% Critical damage from your Elrianode gear, you'll have a 1.86x damage multiplier and not anything less than that because... It doesn't normalise.

    Q2. But what you're showing is that the more I stack, the less effective it becomes!
    A2. To put things into perspective, what this guide is about is similar to the amount of overall damage increase you'd get from increasing your Critical Rate from 70% to 80%, for example (it's ~3.7%). Maximise has a lot more factors going into it so I'm going to refrain from using it as an example because it may confuse you even more. The point, is that we're not looking at what's happening in between, we're adding onto what we already have and seeing what happens. Another important thing to remember is that these particular stats become less effective not because that stat itself has become worse, but because other stats have become better to stack at that specific point in time. Again, to reiterate, the stats that we're talking about here do not normalise.

    Q3. What if what I'm changing isn't just ASD or Critical damage (Critical Damage Increase / CDI), but both? What if I have more things to compare?
    A3. You'd have to tally values from each stat, then multiply out their final numbers. Say for example you're comparing just HL 4/5 + MR 4/4 (10% CDI, 10% ASD) with MR 5/5 + ET3 4/4 (5% ASD, 5% ASD + 5% CDI). Assuming you're starting with 0 of each, you would be comparing 1.6 x 1.1 = 1.760 with 1.55 x 1.1 = 1.705. In this scenario, the HL 4/5 combo will give more overall damage. If you're going to be changing say, from EP 4/4 to EO 3/3 you would have a lot of work to do, if you can be bothered to do it.

    Contents:
    1. Types of Skill Damage Modifiers
    2. Additive stats and how it affects your overall damage
    3. How all this applies to All Skill Damage vs Stacking Gloves
    4. How all this applies to min-maxing



    1. Types of Skill Damage Modifiers

    To start off, there are 3 types of Skill damage modifiers. All Skill Damage (ASD), Tier Skill Damage (TSD - Flex, Strength, "ASD" ERP etc.) and Stacking Gloves. Destruction El Tears (things like Siege Mode +12%, Shadoweave +12%) fall under TSD. These 3 stats are all multiplied together, meaning that you'd take your ASD value, multiply it with TSD, and then multiply with your Stacking.
    a
    NOTE: The stat sheet given in-game is wrong. It's combining TSD with ASD which is incorrect. They're actually multiplied.

    NOTE 2: The ASD from ERP is actually all skill tiers combined into one, i.e. When you take one point in ASD on the ERP page, you gain 0.35% Flex, Tenacity, Strength and Bravery skill damage. ERP is the exception, not the rule. For everything else, ASD is a separate multiplier.
    a
    Because of that, here's how Skill Damage works: They're additive upon themselves and multiplicative upon the others. In simple English, if it's of the same type, they'll add together first, and be multiplied later with the other 2.

    If you have 50% ASD and want to get 20% more ASD, the ASD adds with itself, giving you 70% ASD. If you have 40% Stacking, it's a separate Skill Damage modifier, and so is multiplied. If you have 70% ASD, 40% Stacking and 70% TSD, they would ALL be multiplied together, giving 1.70 x 1.40 x 1.70 using decimals.
    a
    ASD TSD Gloves
    Current Stats 50% 40% 40%
    Adding on 20% 0% 0%
    Total 70% 40% 40%
    What you're multiplying together 1.70 1.40 1.40
    a
    Another example, let's take random numbers and say you've got 50% ASD, 42% Stacking and 16% TSD. These will all multiply together, giving 1.50 x 1.42 x 1.16. If you want to get 10% more ASD, 6% more Stacking and 8% more TSD, those numbers now become 50 +10 = 60% ASD, 42 + 6 = 48% Stacking and 16 + 8 = 24% TSD. The new values of 60, 48 and 24 are then multiplied together, giving 1.60 x 1.48 x 1.24. Since multiplication is commutative, it doesn't matter what order you multiply them in, the end result will still be the same.
    a
    ASD TSD Gloves
    Current Stats 50% 16% 42%
    Adding on 10% 8% 6%
    Total 60% 24% 48%
    What you're multiplying together 1.60 1.24 1.48
    a

    a
    2. Additive stats and how it affects your overall damage
    a
    Take note of the words "additive" and "multiplicative", as these will become quite important to understanding the ASD vs Stacking gloves later. To understand the significance of those words in this context, let's start from the very beginning.
    a
    There is a very simple rule to remember: "Anything that's additive gives diminishing returns the more you have". In simple English, the more you add on from different sources, the less effective the extra becomes.
    a
    Say you've got 4 pieces of gear that each give 10% of some sort of damage.
    - When you equip your first piece, the stat increase is from 100% to 110% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 110/100 = 10%.
    - After equipping the second piece, the stat increase is from 110% to 120% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 120/110 = 9.09%
    - After equipping the third piece, the stat increase is from 120% to 130% (10%). The overall damage increase is 130/120 = 8.3%
    - After equipping the fourth piece, the stat increase is from 130% to 140% (10%). The overall damage increase is 140/130 = 7.69%



    a
    I could extend the list further, but from this example, it should start becoming clear that even though the stat is increasing from 10 to 20 to 30 and finally to 40%, the overalldamage increase is actually gradually falling off (10 > 9.09 > 8.3 > 7.69). Each source of 10% damage increase is becoming less and less effective.
    a
    You might be wondering, why 110% to 120%? Why aren't we starting at 10% and calculating the increase from 10% to 20%? The reason this is is because 100% is the damage you'd normally be doing.
    a
    Using Critical damage and maximise as an example, say you had 100% in both critical and maximise, you would be doing a permanent 1 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25x damage. Since percentages are decimals multiplied by 100, this wouldn't look very intuitive because you'd be looking at 100% x 150% x 150% = 225%. They look different, but their meaning is identical.
    a
    (For the people who are already familiar with this, take note that the range for maximise isn't a static 0.5 to 1.5, it depends on the weapon being used but that's not relevant to what this post is about.)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Adding Tier Skill Damage (TSD)
    a
    Now, let's try applying this new information to things we can actually see in-game. Allow me to present a realistic example for TSD:
    a
    Let's say you're playing a class that uses mostly Bravery skills, like Metamorphy and Bluhen. You'd naturally want to have Bravery damage in your Chronicle (10%) and Ring (20%), which are 2 separate sources. You might also want 100 points into Bravery ERP (35%).

    This is what it looks like:
    - When you equip a Chronicle, your TSD goes from 100% to 110% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 110/100 = 10%
    - After equipping a Ring, your TSD goes from 110% to 130% (+20%). The overall damage increase is 130/110 = 18.2%
    - After taking 100 Bravery ERP, your TSD goes from 130% to 165% (+35%). The overall damage increase is 130/120 = 26.9%



    a
    Since Destruction tears also count towards TSD, say you're a Bluhen who wants to build Requiem tears which are also Bravery-tier. Your overall damage increase is actually much less than 12% per tear, where each tear is considered a separate source. I'll let you do the maths on that one.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    a
    Adding All Skill Damage (ASD)
    a
    Now, let's extend this concept to All Skill Damage (ASD). Everyone starts off with no bonus ASD, meaning that similarly to TSD, it starts off at 100%. Some more examples:
    a
    Say you decide to pick up Salvatore Rosso 5/5 or Mariposa 5/5 (7%), have Elrianode armour 4/4 (10%) and have a stage 15 Void weapon (10%).
    This is what it looks like:
    - When you equip SR/MR 5/5, your ASD goes from 100% to 107% (+7%). The overall damage increase is 107/100 = 7%
    - After equipping Elrianode 4/4, your ASD goes from 107% to 117% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 117/110 = 9.35%
    - After stage 15 Void, your ASD goes from 117% to 127% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 127/117 = 8.54%

    a
    Take note that I've used the word overall throughout, because again, I'm placing heavy emphasis on that what you're going to be looking at is the overall damage increase. Even though your Bravery damage per part is increased by the full amount, your overall damage isn't increased by the full amount, and when trying to maximise your damage, the overall damage increase is what's important.
    a
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Adding Stacking Gloves
    a
    The concept of additive stuff giving decreasing overall damage can also be applied to Stacking gloves per stack. If you're using a pair of gloves that are Enh+2 for Bravery and are at +10, each stack is going to give you a 12% increase in damage. This is what it'll look like:
    a
    - At 0 stacks, you haven't used any skills, so the damage you do is 100% (or 1x)
    - At 1 Stack, you do 12% bonus damage. Your overall damage is increased by 112/100 = 12%
    - At 2 stacks, you do 24% bonus damage. Compared to 1 stack, your overall damage is increased by 124/112 = 10.7%
    - At 3 stacks, you do 36% bonus damage. Compared to 2 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 136/124 = 9.6%
    - At 4 stacks, you do 48% bonus damage. Compared to 3 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 148/136 = 8.8%
    - At 5 stacks, you do 60% bonus damage. Compared to 4 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 160/148 = 8.1%


    As you can see, if you were to compare the overall damage increase per stack (this is important), your overall damage doesn't increase by the full amount either. The dropoff is still there.
    a
    However, since this Skill Damage multiplier can come from only one source, you'll be doing 60% bonus damage at maximum stacks.

    a
    3. How all this applies to All Skill Damage and Stacking Gloves
    a
    In light of the introduction of All Skill Damage gloves, many players who are thinking of choosing between one or the other aren't sure if All Skill Damage is better than Stacking. Now that we know how overall damage works, the following should start to make sense.
    a
    5*Enhancement Level ASD
    Assuming a +10, it gives 50% ASD, and this will be added with the All Skill Damage you already have. This means that if you've got multiple sources of ASD (like SR 5/5 (7%), MR 4/4 (10%), Void Stage 15 (10%) and Elrianode armour 4/4 (10%)), the 5*Enh is going to be another source to add to the list, making it drop off even more. From earlier, we already know that the the more sources of the same multiplier you add on, the less overall damage you get out of it. Assuming you have all of the before, you'd have a total of 37% ASD, assuming you've got no other sources of it from elsewhere. To find out how much overall damage increase using the 5*E gloves will give at this point, your ASD will be increasing from 137% to 187%, which will give you an overall damage increase of 187/137 = 1.365, or 36.5%.

    Adding to the paragraph from the ASD section:
    - When you equip SR/MR 5/5, your ASD goes from 100% to 107% (+7%). The overall damage increase is 107/100 = 7%
    - After equipping Elrianode 4/4, your ASD goes from 107% to 117% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 117/110 = 9.35%
    - After stage 15 Void, your ASD goes from 117% to 127% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 127/117 = 8.54%
    - After equipping MR 4/4, your ASD goes from 127% to 137% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 137/127 = 7.9%
    - After equipping 5*Enh, your ASD goes from 137% to 187% (+50%). The overall damage increase is 187/137 = 36.5%

    (Just to reinforce the commutative attribute of addition, keep in mind that it doesn't matter where I add in the MR 4/4 since the end goal is comparing 137% to 187%.)

    [Enhancement Level +2] Stacking Gloves
    To compare this with Enh+2, assuming a +10, at maximum stacks you'll be sitting on the full, raw 60% bonus damage. Why?
    1. Stacking gloves are a completely separate multiplier from ASD.
    2. When a damage multiplier is from only one source, you get the full benefits from it.
    3. For Stacking gloves to fall off as much as ASD, there would have to be other sources that add with the Gloves, but obviously there are none.


    Based on this, if you were to compare things solely from a damage standpoint, the short answer to the question is No, ASD wouldn't be as good as Stacking gloves.

    The long answer is that it depends.

    Some classes will definitely be able to make more use and arguably be much better off with it like Code: Escensia as each of her tiers has something good in it that's used often. MEB, Tesla Flare, Heaven's Fist - Sweeper and Genocide Ripper (and DLG). It also depends on the dungeon. If say you're fighting Drabaki where you'd be throwing out skills left right and centre regardless, using ASD would be a needless loss in damage. If a dungeon has its monsters very widely spread out and most of your time is spent travelling instead of hitting things, needing to whiff skills for stacks will very quickly become a pain and a huge waste of potions.

    Using ASD would also be preferred if you're already at the stage where you have perfect gear and want to start optimising for cost instead of damage. This means that you wouldn't need to whiff up to 300MP (or even more) just to maintain stacks, or if there's someone lagging behind, you wouldn't need to whiff more than 1 skill and mess up your next few skill rotations for the following room and potentially the entire dungeon.

    With all that said and done, it's also important to keep in mind that if you don't really care about damage too much and don't have any other sources of ASD, you'd be comparing the full blown 50% overall damage increase from ASD with the 60% bonus damage from Stacking Gloves. This means that you'd essentially be sitting on a pair of stacking gloves permanently at about 4 stacks (4 stacks x 12 = 48, which is close to 50) as opposed to having to work to get a 5th stack and needing to constantly refresh its duration.

    If you don't have a pair of Stacking gloves due to them being removed before you had a chance to get them, don't worry about it. From what we can see so far, the design of Varnimyr dungeons look like they strongly favour ASD gloves due to how spread out they are. However, if you're still tossing up between the 2, ideally you'd want to make both of the gloves anyway such that you can swap them in and out depending on the content and class you're playing. Don't forget that you can get ASD on Heroic gloves too. ASD also affects anything that does damage based on your M/ATK, so things like Nature orbs and pets are affected too.


    4. How all this applies to min-maxing

    Adding All Attack Up (Attack or Magic Attack increase) +X%

    This may surprise you, but additive properties also apply to equipment parts that give +X% Attack. Two examples I can immediately think of are Ignia's Accessories 4/4 and Dimension of Sinister Intent (DOSI) 3/3. I'll be abbreviating it to AAU, short for All Attack Up for the sake of keeping it clean.
    This is what it'll look like:
    - When you equip Ignia 4/4, your AAU goes from 100% to 104% (+4%). The overall damage increase is 104/100 = 4%
    - After equipping DOSI 3/3, your AAU goes from 104% to 107% (+3%). The overall damage increase is 107/104 = 2.88%

    What happens to the 1% ASD part of DOSI 3/3 you may ask? That gets added together with the list of ASD stuff and is multiplied later with TSD and Stacking gloves. This also applies to the Rank 1 Henir Title, God of Dimensions, which gives 10% AAU. However, given that we now know that things that are additive drop off, that 10% AAU doesn't necessarily translate to a 10% overall damage increase.

    Adding Critical Damage
    a
    The adding of stat values from before also applies to Critical Damage, except that instead of starting at 100%, it starts at 150% because that's what our base critical damage is. Now that we know that we're expecting the overall damage increase to be dropping off, let's look at some realistic examples:

    Say you already have HL 4/5 for an extra 10% Critical damage. The overall increase? You guessed it, it's not 10%! It's 160/150 = 1.067, or a 6.7% increase in damage. Doing the same, assume you want to grab EOvD for another 10% Critical damage on top of HL 4/5. The overall damage increase is 6.25%.

    In a more readable format, this is what it'll look like:
    - When you equip HL 4/5, your Crit damage goes from 150% to 160% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 160/150 = 6.7%
    - After equipping EOvD, your Crit damage goes from 160% to 170% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 170/160 = 6.25%

    Min-Maxing in practice

    This 6.7% is significant because Mariposa and SR give 7% ASD, which will amount to a 7% overall damage increase assuming you've got no other sources of ASD. Assuming you're completely naked and are at base values (remember that Crit damage starts at 150, and ASD at 100), Mariposa/SR will be better than HL 4/5 by such a tiny amount (7% vs 6.7%) that it's really only worth looking into if you're trying to squeeze out as much damage as possible. I bring this up because a lot of people tend to ask if getting HL 4/5 is preferred over Mariposa 5/5.

    This builds on the concept of additive things dropping off. To maximise your damage output, you'd want to build more of the stat you're lacking since the more of an additive stat you stack, the lower the overall damage increase you get. It'll reach a point where investing more into another damage multiplier is more beneficial, i.e. if you keep pumping just ASD, it'll reach a point where pumping Crit damage will be giving you a better overall damage increase.

    To help make all of this clearer, let's look at a rather common min-maxing example:

    Let's grab some random numbers, and say that you've got 50% ASD and 36% bonus Critical Damage from 4 parts Elrianode gear +10 and are trying to figure out if 7% ASD or 10% Crit damage will give you more damage (Salvatore Rosso/Mariposa vs Henir Lord)

    - Your current ASD is 50%. If you were to use Mariposa 5/5, your ASD would increase from 150% to 157% (+7%). The overall damage increase would be 4.67%
    - Your current Critical damage is 150 + 36 = 186%. If you were to use Henir Lord 4/5, your Crit damage would increase from 186% to 196% (+10%). The overall damage increase would be 5.38%


    What this means is that at this specific moment in time, if you had these stats and were picking between the two, you'd go with Henir Lord because it would be giving you a higher overall damage increase compared to if you were to take Salvatore Rosso or Mariposa. If say you're going to be choosing between another source of ASD and Critical damage, you'd do the same comparison as before to see which would give you more damage and pick that one. Again, you'd want to pump the stat you have the least of.


    If you've made it to the end, thank you for taking the time to read this, and hopefully you learnt something new today. The concepts introduced here don't just apply to Elsword, they can be applied to any game.

    Take it slow, there's no rush, and good luck with the grind.

    Huge thanks to Ashallia for doing the proof-reading. :birbhug:
    Last edited by st0rmbreaK-solace-; 01-10-2019, 06:38 AM.
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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class319152}}
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    #2
    Nice thread; perfectly explains the math behind the damage formula between the two el tears.

    I created an excel spreadsheet that everyone can play around with. This spreadsheet is just a simple calculation I made on my phone to show the difference it will make between additive (all skill dmg) and multiplicative (skill stacking).
    You just need to input the damage you put out, your increased all skill damage, increased tier skill damage, and your enhancement level.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...t?usp=drivesdk

    Currently I have set the increased all skill damage to 48% and tier skill damage to 30%; the amount I currently have for Strength. By the time I get to my 2nd stack, I deal around 21% less damage than the amount I do with 5*e all skill damage el tear, and then I profit off of 3rd stack onwards. As a KE, I just have to throw out Flame Geyser and maybe Spiral Blast into the air, and I'm good to go if I lose my stacks.

    Feel free to contact me if any changes should be made, or make a more user-friendly version of it.

    EDIT: Updated spreadsheet to show all skill damage and tier skill damage for a more accurate calculation.
    Last edited by Rekkuuzan-solace-; 07-13-2018, 08:45 AM.

    Comment


    • Rekkuuzan-solace-
      Rekkuuzan-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      I wouldn't say it's useless, because while the formula is incorrect it still shows the effects between additive and multiplicative to prove st0rmbreaK's point.

      Also FYI, I made this spreadsheet out of whim before this post so I didn't look up the exact formula.

      Updated the spreadsheet to differentiate between all skill dmg and tiered skill dmg.
      Last edited by Rekkuuzan-solace-; 07-13-2018, 08:06 AM.

    • Ashallia-solace-
      Ashallia-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      now its correct ^^
      (the example of 78% all skill dmg and 30% skill tier dmg is not possible tho)

    • Rekkuuzan-solace-
      Rekkuuzan-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      Glad that its correct now!

      I have a "total" of 108% "increased strength skill damage" in my stats screen last I checked (according to KOG). Unless that's the total I got with all skill dmg x tier skill dmg, then yea it's supposed to be 48%-ish.

      I will have to painstakingly look through my equips again for a more accurate amount. I am at work now, but I can check once I get home. Thanks KOG to show inaccurate information haha.
      Last edited by Rekkuuzan-solace-; 07-13-2018, 09:06 AM.
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    #3
    Added FAQ. Please let me know if there is still anything that's confusing and I'll try to rectify it.

    If someone would be so kind as to tell me what the colour of the body background is too, that would be greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by st0rmbreaK-solace-; 10-19-2018, 08:20 AM.
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    My Youtube Channel

    Tearbox.io is a website programmed and developed by our very own Line with help from the PVE discord community! Highly recommended as it greatly helps with compiling all your El Tears into a simple, readable format, complete with filters to help with finding the exact tears you need! Though still in Beta, the website is pretty much functional!

    Comment

    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class368144}}
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      #4
      I don't see where this takes into account that you are using more then one skill type. It lacks a practical example. Just go trough one or two skill rotations and show off how this turns out. This should also make it much easier to understand.

      To be honest this seems like an easy concept with a way to complex explanation. Remember, you are not suppose to write a master thesis. I always try to use a example people can relate to when explaining something complicated. Just use the KISS principle. Keep it simple, stupid.
      Suggestions:

      Comment


      • st0rmbreaK-solace-
        st0rmbreaK-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        More often than not you're going to be attempting to use 2-3 skills as much as possible and pressing other things while waiting for them to come off cooldown. Your example implies that all the skills in your skill bar are equal in value, you're going to be using every skill the moment they come off cooldown, and that you're using them all equally for damage. This simply isn't the case because I'm sure that you want to be pressing Shadow Bolt and Eschaton as often as you can for damage if the situation allows for it, which is why examples like the one you gave don't work, and this becomes even hairier when you factor in the dungeon you're running. If it's things like Raids (Drabaki, Varnimyr) where the enemy is relatively stationary, you should use stacking if you have access to it and if your class can use it effectively. For general PVE like Elrianode and Varnimyr, with ASD you don't have to whiff for stacks or factor in travel time while if you use stacking you'll have to to maintain damage output. Varnimyr is also really obnoxious to play in because of how spread out everything is, so you're never getting the highest efficiency out of your skills. This is why the best you can do is to give a general rule instead of giving specific examples.

        I also know how misleading my title can come across as, so I did mention that if people want the immediate reply they can skip straight to point 3. However, if they want to know how the maths works and want to know how to calculate stats for themselves so that they'll never have to ask the same question again, they're free to read through the entire thing to see how the maths works and will be able to figure it out for themselves. It's also pretty difficult because you can't talk about how to maximise your damage without touching on how the maths works. I could definitely cut down on the number of examples I gave because they're all essentially the same thing, but I wanted to cover as many bases as possible. I'll most definitely have to restructure all of this eventually because every time I come back to it it seems even messier than the last time i checked back.
        Last edited by st0rmbreaK-solace-; 10-28-2018, 10:14 AM.

      • Tsugumari-solace-
        Tsugumari-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        st0rmbreaK-solace-
        Yes there are all used equally. For both damage, evasion and CP build up. I can go into detail, but we should probably do that via the private message system.

        And no, you should use all your tools available. Because in some cases some skills are just impractical. 12-6 is a good contestant for that. Eschaton when we are talking Varnimyr is really bad. That's why I listed Fantasy Impromptu - 2nd Movement. CP skill in general are really hard to stack as well. IN main damage skills go throw all three tiers, you really want to alternate. The fact that you reduce CD via switching also make Tenacity really good on them. We can actually go tough the classes and look up what they use. I only knew a few of them that can go single tier efficiently But again, lets do that via PM..

      • st0rmbreaK-solace-
        st0rmbreaK-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        I think that for the sake of keeping the thread correct and to facilitate discussion, anything that needs to be said should be said here.

        Some classes opt for ASD due to having that 1 or 2 off-tier skills that will hit quite hard for the class, which is why I say it depends on the class, the content that's being cleared and the gear that's being used. Now for some examples to show why your example doesn't really work:

        The main reason you go for ASD on Devi is mainly due to Rak Inferno. If you don't have the gear/damage to be able to consistently clear with Energy Wave to begin with and you're tossing up between those 2 gloves in your inventory, I'd suggest going stacking because giving Energy Wave consistency is more important than boosting one strong skill for bossing, and that Purgatory is a really good bossing tool in and of itself.

        For NI, he has Giga Prominence as the off-tier skill so that would depend on if you're willing to drop your damage on both Crows and Revolver Cannon, and Revolver Cannon is also a skill that hits very hard for its cost and cooldown. You'd also have to factor in that Giga Prominence also does almost no damage to smaller enemies. Sure, it's a good button to press but are you willing to boost Giga Prominence when Revolver Cannon can do what it does but better and more consistently?

        For FB, he has Hypersonic Stab, but if your Shockwaves aren't able to oneshot due to changing to ASD, you'd have just shot yourself in the foot given how reliant he is on them.

        For IN, she would most definitely want ASD because she has skills in other tiers that do ridiculous damage. I think we can both agree that 14.1k% on a Tenacity skill and 17.7k% on a Strength skill isn't normal no matter how you look at it. Demonic Breath, Shadow Bolt are skills that do way too much damage for their tier, making IN the exception rather than the norm, which is why your reasoning for taking ASD works on her.

        For Daybreaker, you can either build Flex, Brave or ASD, but they play very differently to each other. If I were playing Flex, I'm fully encouraged to use Siege. If I play Brave/ASD, I'm encouraged to prioritise using my Braves and press Siege only when my Braves are on cooldown due to Braves having higher base numbers by default.

        This is why I say that using specific examples doesn't work, which is why I choose go about this via "general rule". If I were to go about listing which class should be using what, it can change the moment a balance patch hits. I don't want to be giving people information that can change at the whim of the developers, I want to be giving information that's objectively correct and won't change regardless of what the devs decide to do to the characters/classes.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class368145}}
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      #5
      what a nice post =w= thanks for your hard work. Could i ask how do u know that tier skill damage counts as a different skill damage modifier? Also it seems like u make some mistakes when u compare Ignia vs DOSI (104+3 => 117/110 nani...) and some typos ("ASD" instead or "AAU").

      Comment


      • st0rmbreaK-solace-
        st0rmbreaK-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        Oops.

        I know that Tier Skill damage is a different modifier because I tested it.

      • Candyyyland-gaia-
        Candyyyland-gaia- commented
        Editing a comment
        btw 107/104 = 2.88%

      • st0rmbreaK-solace-
        st0rmbreaK-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        Give me a break, some things were copy pasted and i forgot to change them afterwards ;_;
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class370134}}
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      #6
      Taken form this Post:

      I think that for the sake of keeping the thread correct and to facilitate discussion, anything that needs to be said should be said here.

      Some classes opt for ASD due to having that 1 or 2 off-tier skills that will hit quite hard for the class, which is why I say it depends on the class, the content that's being cleared and the gear that's being used. Now for some examples to show why your example doesn't really work:

      [Explanation of classes, see original]

      This is why I say that using specific examples doesn't work, which is why I choose go about this via "general rule". If I were to go about listing which class should be using what, it can change the moment a balance patch hits. I don't want to be giving people information that can change at the whim of the developers, I want to be giving information that's objectively correct and won't change regardless of what the devs decide to do to the characters/classes.
      I wanted to avoid spamming this thread, but if you are fine with that we can do so. However, the comments sections is not meant for it (lack of editing tools), so I make it a proper post.

      For the classes
      • All Elsword classes use Bravery and Strength equally form what i saw ingame. You can just boost Windmill, on KE, but that's very specific.
      • For Aisha I say OS can go pure Bravery. Not sure about Metamorphy.
      • I guess all three Renas can go Bravery, but I remember something about Ace in the Hole being bad in raid. So it is a least limiting.
      • For Raven...
        • FD can go pure Strength, no problem.
        • RH probably want to go Bravery/Strength. Well I guess pure Strength is possible.
        • NI is the same as RH to be honest.
      • Not sure about eve. I heard CN can run a Bravery build? I think the other two use all kind of tiers.
      • For Chung I say all of them use Bravery/Strength "kinda" equally? Korrekt me if I am wrong.
      • Ara is similar to Chung. Shakti works for a pure Bravery build I guess?
      • Elesis is again similar to Chung in my opinion. Maybe you can work out a Strength build, but questionable how good that is.
      • No idea about Add.
      • Due to the CP system Luciel uses at least two tiers.
      • For Rose I know Minerva can go Strength. Not really sure about the rest.
      • As for Ain I heard Bluhen can go Bravery. For the other I often see a mix of Bravery/Strength. I assume Richter can go Strength?
      Note that this is what i see people using. Both ingame and in videos. It more of a mix then focusing on a single tier.

      For the most part it doesn't matter. There is no benefit for overkill anything, so I prefer the more consistent ASD for clearing. Only in rare cases I lack some damage to actually kill something with one skill, so tier stacking wouldn't change anything. In other words it comes down to DPS for bosses. However, again it's really rare for that few percentages to matter. You hardly every wipe because your DPS is to low and the reason for that being because you use ASD. If anything the pressure of keeping up the stacks may lead to a mistake.

      I say if you already have tier stacking keep it and the way to play with it. If you don't, then use ASD and embrace the freedom when it comes to skill choices. The difference isn't high enough to worry about it. How you play will effect you DPS much more, this is an action RPG after all. If we really want to worry about something it's that ASD might be more future proof then tier stacking.
      Suggestions:

      Comment


      • st0rmbreaK-solace-
        st0rmbreaK-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        You hardly every wipe because your DPS is to low and the reason for that being because you use ASD. If anything the pressure of keeping up the stacks may lead to a mistake.
        This would be incorrect because your damage isn't reduced by just a few percentage points. Assuming you're using +11 Void (5), have stage 15 (10), have Elrianode gear (10) and have at least 5% ASD from another source (some IB combo, 5 to 10%, let's just assume 5), your increase would be 38.4%~40%. If you were using stacking, assuming the same gear, that would be a flat 60% increase. This makes the difference between them 14.2%~15.6% which I'd say is pretty large, and even more so if there aren't many geared people in the party. You could also argue that the faster the boss dies the less likely everyone will die as well. If say you're not very geared, a balance patch hits and you go from being able to oneshot to not being able to oneshot. You may be forced to used stacking to maintain clearing consistency, which was essentially me when Phoenix Strike got nerfed from 6k% to 3k%. I had no choice but to invest into Bravery stacking because I could no longer stay consistent. in hindsight, even though it somewhat annoys me, I don't regret doing that one bit as I managed to get a lot of mileage out of making that investment.

        If players are dying while attempting to stack, they have one of two choices, either just don't stack, or choose a better time to stack.

        If we really want to worry about something it's that ASD might be more future proof then tier stacking.
        I mentioned that if you can't get your hands on stacking, you shouldn't worry about it and just gun for ASD because of how the dungeon designs are at the moment (which are likely to continue), not to mention that ASD affects pet damage too. I know how obnoxious it is to play stacking when you have to travel 200 miles from one mob to the next, you're essentially almost never on 5 stacks until you reach the boss unless you're oneshotting everything and even then it can prove difficult unless you run with twister apples. 12-5-1 Tornado? Say goodbye to your stacks unless you're a Bravery stacker and stacked right before you entered the tornado. 12-6-3 spin? Unless you have really fast casting skills you can probably say goodbye to your stacks as well because the spin goes faster past 60 bars.

        The point of this though, is to let players know what they're signing up for if they don't have access to both gloves and are thinking of hard-investing into one or the other. If you have the luxury to run both, it would obviously be better make another pair of gloves to be able to take advantage of the versatility having both offers, which ties back to what the title is about.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class372467}}
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      #7
      I benefited immensely from this. Thanks~
      :: No signature atm ::

      Comment

      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class374293}}
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        #8
        "- When you equip a Chronicle, your TSD goes from 100% to 120% (+20%). The overall damage increase is 110/100 = 10%" , Something's off here isn't it? or am I tripping

        Comment


        • st0rmbreaK-solace-
          st0rmbreaK-solace- commented
          Editing a comment
          Fixed. If anyone finds any other inconsistencies, please let me know.
      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class382064}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level382064}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild382064}}

        #9
        Added a small note. ASD ERP is actually all tiers combined into one, so if you take 1 point into ASD, you're gaining 0.35% of Flex, Tenacity, Strength and Brave damage. Pretty huge buff to everyone.
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