Author's Foreword:
A lot of players have been wondering if the All Skill Damage gloves are better than the Stacking ones, and I thought it would be quite useful to write a guide that explains how they work. However, the more I wrote, the harder I found trying to only talk only about the gloves as I had to talk about other concepts that weren't necessarily common knowledge. Because of this, I decided to extend it to how some specific stats work in the game and how you can use this knowledge to make decisions in the future for your gear.
This was quite a difficult guide to write because I'd never written something this mathematically extensive while also trying to make it as easily readable as possible as I know that for most people, seeing a huge wall of text and numbers can easily make them tune out. Hopefully you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed the challenge of writing it. If there's anything that needs clarification or is incorrect, please let me know immediately by commenting below. I still have to figure out the flow of this piece, so I'll be editing it from time to time so it flows better.
If you're after the explanation for which gloves are better, kindly skip straight to point number 3.
With that out of the way, let's begin.
FAQs
Q1. Isn't this the same as normalisation?
A1. No, it isn't. If you've got say 50% Bonus critical damage, you will be doing 2x damage if you land a critical hit, and not some lower number. This isn't like Critical Rate or Maximise where you need to socket (for example) more than 80% of that stat to achieve 80% of that stat. When you've got 36% Critical damage from your Elrianode gear, you'll have a 1.86x damage multiplier and not anything less than that because... It doesn't normalise.
Q2. But what you're showing is that the more I stack, the less effective it becomes!
A2. To put things into perspective, what this guide is about is similar to the amount of overall damage increase you'd get from increasing your Critical Rate from 70% to 80%, for example (it's ~3.7%). Maximise has a lot more factors going into it so I'm going to refrain from using it as an example because it may confuse you even more. The point, is that we're not looking at what's happening in between, we're adding onto what we already have and seeing what happens. Another important thing to remember is that these particular stats become less effective not because that stat itself has become worse, but because other stats have become better to stack at that specific point in time. Again, to reiterate, the stats that we're talking about here do not normalise.
Q3. What if what I'm changing isn't just ASD or Critical damage (Critical Damage Increase / CDI), but both? What if I have more things to compare?
A3. You'd have to tally values from each stat, then multiply out their final numbers. Say for example you're comparing just HL 4/5 + MR 4/4 (10% CDI, 10% ASD) with MR 5/5 + ET3 4/4 (5% ASD, 5% ASD + 5% CDI). Assuming you're starting with 0 of each, you would be comparing 1.6 x 1.1 = 1.760 with 1.55 x 1.1 = 1.705. In this scenario, the HL 4/5 combo will give more overall damage. If you're going to be changing say, from EP 4/4 to EO 3/3 you would have a lot of work to do, if you can be bothered to do it.
Contents:
1. Types of Skill Damage Modifiers
2. Additive stats and how it affects your overall damage
3. How all this applies to All Skill Damage vs Stacking Gloves
4. How all this applies to min-maxing
1. Types of Skill Damage Modifiers
To start off, there are 3 types of Skill damage modifiers. All Skill Damage (ASD), Tier Skill Damage (TSD - Flex, Strength, "ASD" ERP etc.) and Stacking Gloves. Destruction El Tears (things like Siege Mode +12%, Shadoweave +12%) fall under TSD. These 3 stats are all multiplied together, meaning that you'd take your ASD value, multiply it with TSD, and then multiply with your Stacking.
If you have 50% ASD and want to get 20% more ASD, the ASD adds with itself, giving you 70% ASD. If you have 40% Stacking, it's a separate Skill Damage modifier, and so is multiplied. If you have 70% ASD, 40% Stacking and 70% TSD, they would ALL be multiplied together, giving 1.70 x 1.40 x 1.70 using decimals.
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Another example, let's take random numbers and say you've got 50% ASD, 42% Stacking and 16% TSD. These will all multiply together, giving 1.50 x 1.42 x 1.16. If you want to get 10% more ASD, 6% more Stacking and 8% more TSD, those numbers now become 50 +10 = 60% ASD, 42 + 6 = 48% Stacking and 16 + 8 = 24% TSD. The new values of 60, 48 and 24 are then multiplied together, giving 1.60 x 1.48 x 1.24. Since multiplication is commutative, it doesn't matter what order you multiply them in, the end result will still be the same.
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2. Additive stats and how it affects your overall damage
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Take note of the words "additive" and "multiplicative", as these will become quite important to understanding the ASD vs Stacking gloves later. To understand the significance of those words in this context, let's start from the very beginning.
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There is a very simple rule to remember: "Anything that's additive gives diminishing returns the more you have". In simple English, the more you add on from different sources, the less effective the extra becomes.
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I could extend the list further, but from this example, it should start becoming clear that even though the stat is increasing from 10 to 20 to 30 and finally to 40%, the overalldamage increase is actually gradually falling off (10 > 9.09 > 8.3 > 7.69). Each source of 10% damage increase is becoming less and less effective.
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You might be wondering, why 110% to 120%? Why aren't we starting at 10% and calculating the increase from 10% to 20%? The reason this is is because 100% is the damage you'd normally be doing.
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Using Critical damage and maximise as an example, say you had 100% in both critical and maximise, you would be doing a permanent 1 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25x damage. Since percentages are decimals multiplied by 100, this wouldn't look very intuitive because you'd be looking at 100% x 150% x 150% = 225%. They look different, but their meaning is identical.
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(For the people who are already familiar with this, take note that the range for maximise isn't a static 0.5 to 1.5, it depends on the weapon being used but that's not relevant to what this post is about.)
Adding Tier Skill Damage (TSD)
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Now, let's try applying this new information to things we can actually see in-game. Allow me to present a realistic example for TSD:
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Since Destruction tears also count towards TSD, say you're a Bluhen who wants to build Requiem tears which are also Bravery-tier. Your overall damage increase is actually much less than 12% per tear, where each tear is considered a separate source. I'll let you do the maths on that one.
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Adding All Skill Damage (ASD)
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Now, let's extend this concept to All Skill Damage (ASD). Everyone starts off with no bonus ASD, meaning that similarly to TSD, it starts off at 100%. Some more examples:
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Say you decide to pick up Salvatore Rosso 5/5 or Mariposa 5/5 (7%), have Elrianode armour 4/4 (10%) and have a stage 15 Void weapon (10%).
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Take note that I've used the word overall throughout, because again, I'm placing heavy emphasis on that what you're going to be looking at is the overall damage increase. Even though your Bravery damage per part is increased by the full amount, your overall damage isn't increased by the full amount, and when trying to maximise your damage, the overall damage increase is what's important.
Adding Stacking Gloves
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The concept of additive stuff giving decreasing overall damage can also be applied to Stacking gloves per stack. If you're using a pair of gloves that are Enh+2 for Bravery and are at +10, each stack is going to give you a 12% increase in damage. This is what it'll look like:
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As you can see, if you were to compare the overall damage increase per stack (this is important), your overall damage doesn't increase by the full amount either. The dropoff is still there.
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However, since this Skill Damage multiplier can come from only one source, you'll be doing 60% bonus damage at maximum stacks.
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3. How all this applies to All Skill Damage and Stacking Gloves
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In light of the introduction of All Skill Damage gloves, many players who are thinking of choosing between one or the other aren't sure if All Skill Damage is better than Stacking. Now that we know how overall damage works, the following should start to make sense.
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5*Enhancement Level ASD
Assuming a +10, it gives 50% ASD, and this will be added with the All Skill Damage you already have. This means that if you've got multiple sources of ASD (like SR 5/5 (7%), MR 4/4 (10%), Void Stage 15 (10%) and Elrianode armour 4/4 (10%)), the 5*Enh is going to be another source to add to the list, making it drop off even more. From earlier, we already know that the the more sources of the same multiplier you add on, the less overall damage you get out of it. Assuming you have all of the before, you'd have a total of 37% ASD, assuming you've got no other sources of it from elsewhere. To find out how much overall damage increase using the 5*E gloves will give at this point, your ASD will be increasing from 137% to 187%, which will give you an overall damage increase of 187/137 = 1.365, or 36.5%.
Adding to the paragraph from the ASD section:
- When you equip SR/MR 5/5, your ASD goes from 100% to 107% (+7%). The overall damage increase is 107/100 = 7%
- After equipping Elrianode 4/4, your ASD goes from 107% to 117% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 117/110 = 9.35%
- After stage 15 Void, your ASD goes from 117% to 127% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 127/117 = 8.54%
- After equipping MR 4/4, your ASD goes from 127% to 137% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 137/127 = 7.9%
- After equipping 5*Enh, your ASD goes from 137% to 187% (+50%). The overall damage increase is 187/137 = 36.5%
(Just to reinforce the commutative attribute of addition, keep in mind that it doesn't matter where I add in the MR 4/4 since the end goal is comparing 137% to 187%.)
[Enhancement Level +2] Stacking Gloves
To compare this with Enh+2, assuming a +10, at maximum stacks you'll be sitting on the full, raw 60% bonus damage. Why?
Based on this, if you were to compare things solely from a damage standpoint, the short answer to the question is No, ASD wouldn't be as good as Stacking gloves.
The long answer is that it depends.
Some classes will definitely be able to make more use and arguably be much better off with it like Code: Escensia as each of her tiers has something good in it that's used often. MEB, Tesla Flare, Heaven's Fist - Sweeper and Genocide Ripper (and DLG). It also depends on the dungeon. If say you're fighting Drabaki where you'd be throwing out skills left right and centre regardless, using ASD would be a needless loss in damage. If a dungeon has its monsters very widely spread out and most of your time is spent travelling instead of hitting things, needing to whiff skills for stacks will very quickly become a pain and a huge waste of potions.
Using ASD would also be preferred if you're already at the stage where you have perfect gear and want to start optimising for cost instead of damage. This means that you wouldn't need to whiff up to 300MP (or even more) just to maintain stacks, or if there's someone lagging behind, you wouldn't need to whiff more than 1 skill and mess up your next few skill rotations for the following room and potentially the entire dungeon.
With all that said and done, it's also important to keep in mind that if you don't really care about damage too much and don't have any other sources of ASD, you'd be comparing the full blown 50% overall damage increase from ASD with the 60% bonus damage from Stacking Gloves. This means that you'd essentially be sitting on a pair of stacking gloves permanently at about 4 stacks (4 stacks x 12 = 48, which is close to 50) as opposed to having to work to get a 5th stack and needing to constantly refresh its duration.
If you don't have a pair of Stacking gloves due to them being removed before you had a chance to get them, don't worry about it. From what we can see so far, the design of Varnimyr dungeons look like they strongly favour ASD gloves due to how spread out they are. However, if you're still tossing up between the 2, ideally you'd want to make both of the gloves anyway such that you can swap them in and out depending on the content and class you're playing. Don't forget that you can get ASD on Heroic gloves too. ASD also affects anything that does damage based on your M/ATK, so things like Nature orbs and pets are affected too.
4. How all this applies to min-maxing
Adding All Attack Up (Attack or Magic Attack increase) +X%
This may surprise you, but additive properties also apply to equipment parts that give +X% Attack. Two examples I can immediately think of are Ignia's Accessories 4/4 and Dimension of Sinister Intent (DOSI) 3/3. I'll be abbreviating it to AAU, short for All Attack Up for the sake of keeping it clean.
What happens to the 1% ASD part of DOSI 3/3 you may ask? That gets added together with the list of ASD stuff and is multiplied later with TSD and Stacking gloves. This also applies to the Rank 1 Henir Title, God of Dimensions, which gives 10% AAU. However, given that we now know that things that are additive drop off, that 10% AAU doesn't necessarily translate to a 10% overall damage increase.
Adding Critical Damage
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The adding of stat values from before also applies to Critical Damage, except that instead of starting at 100%, it starts at 150% because that's what our base critical damage is. Now that we know that we're expecting the overall damage increase to be dropping off, let's look at some realistic examples:
Say you already have HL 4/5 for an extra 10% Critical damage. The overall increase? You guessed it, it's not 10%! It's 160/150 = 1.067, or a 6.7% increase in damage. Doing the same, assume you want to grab EOvD for another 10% Critical damage on top of HL 4/5. The overall damage increase is 6.25%.
In a more readable format, this is what it'll look like:
- When you equip HL 4/5, your Crit damage goes from 150% to 160% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 160/150 = 6.7%
- After equipping EOvD, your Crit damage goes from 160% to 170% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 170/160 = 6.25%
Min-Maxing in practice
This 6.7% is significant because Mariposa and SR give 7% ASD, which will amount to a 7% overall damage increase assuming you've got no other sources of ASD. Assuming you're completely naked and are at base values (remember that Crit damage starts at 150, and ASD at 100), Mariposa/SR will be better than HL 4/5 by such a tiny amount (7% vs 6.7%) that it's really only worth looking into if you're trying to squeeze out as much damage as possible. I bring this up because a lot of people tend to ask if getting HL 4/5 is preferred over Mariposa 5/5.
This builds on the concept of additive things dropping off. To maximise your damage output, you'd want to build more of the stat you're lacking since the more of an additive stat you stack, the lower the overall damage increase you get. It'll reach a point where investing more into another damage multiplier is more beneficial, i.e. if you keep pumping just ASD, it'll reach a point where pumping Crit damage will be giving you a better overall damage increase.
To help make all of this clearer, let's look at a rather common min-maxing example:
Let's grab some random numbers, and say that you've got 50% ASD and 36% bonus Critical Damage from 4 parts Elrianode gear +10 and are trying to figure out if 7% ASD or 10% Crit damage will give you more damage (Salvatore Rosso/Mariposa vs Henir Lord)
- Your current ASD is 50%. If you were to use Mariposa 5/5, your ASD would increase from 150% to 157% (+7%). The overall damage increase would be 4.67%
- Your current Critical damage is 150 + 36 = 186%. If you were to use Henir Lord 4/5, your Crit damage would increase from 186% to 196% (+10%). The overall damage increase would be 5.38%
What this means is that at this specific moment in time, if you had these stats and were picking between the two, you'd go with Henir Lord because it would be giving you a higher overall damage increase compared to if you were to take Salvatore Rosso or Mariposa. If say you're going to be choosing between another source of ASD and Critical damage, you'd do the same comparison as before to see which would give you more damage and pick that one. Again, you'd want to pump the stat you have the least of.
If you've made it to the end, thank you for taking the time to read this, and hopefully you learnt something new today. The concepts introduced here don't just apply to Elsword, they can be applied to any game.
Take it slow, there's no rush, and good luck with the grind.
Huge thanks to Ashallia for doing the proof-reading. :birbhug:
A lot of players have been wondering if the All Skill Damage gloves are better than the Stacking ones, and I thought it would be quite useful to write a guide that explains how they work. However, the more I wrote, the harder I found trying to only talk only about the gloves as I had to talk about other concepts that weren't necessarily common knowledge. Because of this, I decided to extend it to how some specific stats work in the game and how you can use this knowledge to make decisions in the future for your gear.
This was quite a difficult guide to write because I'd never written something this mathematically extensive while also trying to make it as easily readable as possible as I know that for most people, seeing a huge wall of text and numbers can easily make them tune out. Hopefully you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed the challenge of writing it. If there's anything that needs clarification or is incorrect, please let me know immediately by commenting below. I still have to figure out the flow of this piece, so I'll be editing it from time to time so it flows better.
If you're after the explanation for which gloves are better, kindly skip straight to point number 3.
With that out of the way, let's begin.
FAQs
Q1. Isn't this the same as normalisation?
A1. No, it isn't. If you've got say 50% Bonus critical damage, you will be doing 2x damage if you land a critical hit, and not some lower number. This isn't like Critical Rate or Maximise where you need to socket (for example) more than 80% of that stat to achieve 80% of that stat. When you've got 36% Critical damage from your Elrianode gear, you'll have a 1.86x damage multiplier and not anything less than that because... It doesn't normalise.
Q2. But what you're showing is that the more I stack, the less effective it becomes!
A2. To put things into perspective, what this guide is about is similar to the amount of overall damage increase you'd get from increasing your Critical Rate from 70% to 80%, for example (it's ~3.7%). Maximise has a lot more factors going into it so I'm going to refrain from using it as an example because it may confuse you even more. The point, is that we're not looking at what's happening in between, we're adding onto what we already have and seeing what happens. Another important thing to remember is that these particular stats become less effective not because that stat itself has become worse, but because other stats have become better to stack at that specific point in time. Again, to reiterate, the stats that we're talking about here do not normalise.
Q3. What if what I'm changing isn't just ASD or Critical damage (Critical Damage Increase / CDI), but both? What if I have more things to compare?
A3. You'd have to tally values from each stat, then multiply out their final numbers. Say for example you're comparing just HL 4/5 + MR 4/4 (10% CDI, 10% ASD) with MR 5/5 + ET3 4/4 (5% ASD, 5% ASD + 5% CDI). Assuming you're starting with 0 of each, you would be comparing 1.6 x 1.1 = 1.760 with 1.55 x 1.1 = 1.705. In this scenario, the HL 4/5 combo will give more overall damage. If you're going to be changing say, from EP 4/4 to EO 3/3 you would have a lot of work to do, if you can be bothered to do it.
Contents:
1. Types of Skill Damage Modifiers
2. Additive stats and how it affects your overall damage
3. How all this applies to All Skill Damage vs Stacking Gloves
4. How all this applies to min-maxing
1. Types of Skill Damage Modifiers
To start off, there are 3 types of Skill damage modifiers. All Skill Damage (ASD), Tier Skill Damage (TSD - Flex, Strength, "ASD" ERP etc.) and Stacking Gloves. Destruction El Tears (things like Siege Mode +12%, Shadoweave +12%) fall under TSD. These 3 stats are all multiplied together, meaning that you'd take your ASD value, multiply it with TSD, and then multiply with your Stacking.
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NOTE: The stat sheet given in-game is wrong. It's combining TSD with ASD which is incorrect. They're actually multiplied.
NOTE 2: The ASD from ERP is actually all skill tiers combined into one, i.e. When you take one point in ASD on the ERP page, you gain 0.35% Flex, Tenacity, Strength and Bravery skill damage. ERP is the exception, not the rule. For everything else, ASD is a separate multiplier.
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Because of that, here's how Skill Damage works: They're additive upon themselves and multiplicative upon the others. In simple English, if it's of the same type, they'll add together first, and be multiplied later with the other 2.NOTE: The stat sheet given in-game is wrong. It's combining TSD with ASD which is incorrect. They're actually multiplied.
NOTE 2: The ASD from ERP is actually all skill tiers combined into one, i.e. When you take one point in ASD on the ERP page, you gain 0.35% Flex, Tenacity, Strength and Bravery skill damage. ERP is the exception, not the rule. For everything else, ASD is a separate multiplier.
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If you have 50% ASD and want to get 20% more ASD, the ASD adds with itself, giving you 70% ASD. If you have 40% Stacking, it's a separate Skill Damage modifier, and so is multiplied. If you have 70% ASD, 40% Stacking and 70% TSD, they would ALL be multiplied together, giving 1.70 x 1.40 x 1.70 using decimals.
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ASD | TSD | Gloves | |
Current Stats | 50% | 40% | 40% |
Adding on | 20% | 0% | 0% |
Total | 70% | 40% | 40% |
What you're multiplying together | 1.70 | 1.40 | 1.40 |
Another example, let's take random numbers and say you've got 50% ASD, 42% Stacking and 16% TSD. These will all multiply together, giving 1.50 x 1.42 x 1.16. If you want to get 10% more ASD, 6% more Stacking and 8% more TSD, those numbers now become 50 +10 = 60% ASD, 42 + 6 = 48% Stacking and 16 + 8 = 24% TSD. The new values of 60, 48 and 24 are then multiplied together, giving 1.60 x 1.48 x 1.24. Since multiplication is commutative, it doesn't matter what order you multiply them in, the end result will still be the same.
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ASD | TSD | Gloves | |
Current Stats | 50% | 16% | 42% |
Adding on | 10% | 8% | 6% |
Total | 60% | 24% | 48% |
What you're multiplying together | 1.60 | 1.24 | 1.48 |
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2. Additive stats and how it affects your overall damage
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Take note of the words "additive" and "multiplicative", as these will become quite important to understanding the ASD vs Stacking gloves later. To understand the significance of those words in this context, let's start from the very beginning.
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There is a very simple rule to remember: "Anything that's additive gives diminishing returns the more you have". In simple English, the more you add on from different sources, the less effective the extra becomes.
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Say you've got 4 pieces of gear that each give 10% of some sort of damage.
- When you equip your first piece, the stat increase is from 100% to 110% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 110/100 = 10%.
- After equipping the second piece, the stat increase is from 110% to 120% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 120/110 = 9.09%
- After equipping the third piece, the stat increase is from 120% to 130% (10%). The overall damage increase is 130/120 = 8.3%
- After equipping the fourth piece, the stat increase is from 130% to 140% (10%). The overall damage increase is 140/130 = 7.69%
- When you equip your first piece, the stat increase is from 100% to 110% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 110/100 = 10%.
- After equipping the second piece, the stat increase is from 110% to 120% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 120/110 = 9.09%
- After equipping the third piece, the stat increase is from 120% to 130% (10%). The overall damage increase is 130/120 = 8.3%
- After equipping the fourth piece, the stat increase is from 130% to 140% (10%). The overall damage increase is 140/130 = 7.69%
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I could extend the list further, but from this example, it should start becoming clear that even though the stat is increasing from 10 to 20 to 30 and finally to 40%, the overalldamage increase is actually gradually falling off (10 > 9.09 > 8.3 > 7.69). Each source of 10% damage increase is becoming less and less effective.
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You might be wondering, why 110% to 120%? Why aren't we starting at 10% and calculating the increase from 10% to 20%? The reason this is is because 100% is the damage you'd normally be doing.
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Using Critical damage and maximise as an example, say you had 100% in both critical and maximise, you would be doing a permanent 1 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 2.25x damage. Since percentages are decimals multiplied by 100, this wouldn't look very intuitive because you'd be looking at 100% x 150% x 150% = 225%. They look different, but their meaning is identical.
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(For the people who are already familiar with this, take note that the range for maximise isn't a static 0.5 to 1.5, it depends on the weapon being used but that's not relevant to what this post is about.)
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Adding Tier Skill Damage (TSD)
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Now, let's try applying this new information to things we can actually see in-game. Allow me to present a realistic example for TSD:
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Let's say you're playing a class that uses mostly Bravery skills, like Metamorphy and Bluhen. You'd naturally want to have Bravery damage in your Chronicle (10%) and Ring (20%), which are 2 separate sources. You might also want 100 points into Bravery ERP (35%).
This is what it looks like:
- When you equip a Chronicle, your TSD goes from 100% to 110% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 110/100 = 10%
- After equipping a Ring, your TSD goes from 110% to 130% (+20%). The overall damage increase is 130/110 = 18.2%
- After taking 100 Bravery ERP, your TSD goes from 130% to 165% (+35%). The overall damage increase is 130/120 = 26.9%
This is what it looks like:
- When you equip a Chronicle, your TSD goes from 100% to 110% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 110/100 = 10%
- After equipping a Ring, your TSD goes from 110% to 130% (+20%). The overall damage increase is 130/110 = 18.2%
- After taking 100 Bravery ERP, your TSD goes from 130% to 165% (+35%). The overall damage increase is 130/120 = 26.9%
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Since Destruction tears also count towards TSD, say you're a Bluhen who wants to build Requiem tears which are also Bravery-tier. Your overall damage increase is actually much less than 12% per tear, where each tear is considered a separate source. I'll let you do the maths on that one.
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Adding All Skill Damage (ASD)
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Now, let's extend this concept to All Skill Damage (ASD). Everyone starts off with no bonus ASD, meaning that similarly to TSD, it starts off at 100%. Some more examples:
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Say you decide to pick up Salvatore Rosso 5/5 or Mariposa 5/5 (7%), have Elrianode armour 4/4 (10%) and have a stage 15 Void weapon (10%).
This is what it looks like:
- When you equip SR/MR 5/5, your ASD goes from 100% to 107% (+7%). The overall damage increase is 107/100 = 7%
- After equipping Elrianode 4/4, your ASD goes from 107% to 117% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 117/110 = 9.35%
- After stage 15 Void, your ASD goes from 117% to 127% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 127/117 = 8.54%
- When you equip SR/MR 5/5, your ASD goes from 100% to 107% (+7%). The overall damage increase is 107/100 = 7%
- After equipping Elrianode 4/4, your ASD goes from 107% to 117% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 117/110 = 9.35%
- After stage 15 Void, your ASD goes from 117% to 127% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 127/117 = 8.54%
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Take note that I've used the word overall throughout, because again, I'm placing heavy emphasis on that what you're going to be looking at is the overall damage increase. Even though your Bravery damage per part is increased by the full amount, your overall damage isn't increased by the full amount, and when trying to maximise your damage, the overall damage increase is what's important.
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Adding Stacking Gloves
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The concept of additive stuff giving decreasing overall damage can also be applied to Stacking gloves per stack. If you're using a pair of gloves that are Enh+2 for Bravery and are at +10, each stack is going to give you a 12% increase in damage. This is what it'll look like:
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- At 0 stacks, you haven't used any skills, so the damage you do is 100% (or 1x)
- At 1 Stack, you do 12% bonus damage. Your overall damage is increased by 112/100 = 12%
- At 2 stacks, you do 24% bonus damage. Compared to 1 stack, your overall damage is increased by 124/112 = 10.7%
- At 3 stacks, you do 36% bonus damage. Compared to 2 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 136/124 = 9.6%
- At 4 stacks, you do 48% bonus damage. Compared to 3 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 148/136 = 8.8%
- At 5 stacks, you do 60% bonus damage. Compared to 4 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 160/148 = 8.1%
- At 2 stacks, you do 24% bonus damage. Compared to 1 stack, your overall damage is increased by 124/112 = 10.7%
- At 3 stacks, you do 36% bonus damage. Compared to 2 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 136/124 = 9.6%
- At 4 stacks, you do 48% bonus damage. Compared to 3 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 148/136 = 8.8%
- At 5 stacks, you do 60% bonus damage. Compared to 4 stacks, your overall damage is increased by 160/148 = 8.1%
As you can see, if you were to compare the overall damage increase per stack (this is important), your overall damage doesn't increase by the full amount either. The dropoff is still there.
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However, since this Skill Damage multiplier can come from only one source, you'll be doing 60% bonus damage at maximum stacks.
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3. How all this applies to All Skill Damage and Stacking Gloves
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In light of the introduction of All Skill Damage gloves, many players who are thinking of choosing between one or the other aren't sure if All Skill Damage is better than Stacking. Now that we know how overall damage works, the following should start to make sense.
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5*Enhancement Level ASD
Assuming a +10, it gives 50% ASD, and this will be added with the All Skill Damage you already have. This means that if you've got multiple sources of ASD (like SR 5/5 (7%), MR 4/4 (10%), Void Stage 15 (10%) and Elrianode armour 4/4 (10%)), the 5*Enh is going to be another source to add to the list, making it drop off even more. From earlier, we already know that the the more sources of the same multiplier you add on, the less overall damage you get out of it. Assuming you have all of the before, you'd have a total of 37% ASD, assuming you've got no other sources of it from elsewhere. To find out how much overall damage increase using the 5*E gloves will give at this point, your ASD will be increasing from 137% to 187%, which will give you an overall damage increase of 187/137 = 1.365, or 36.5%.
Adding to the paragraph from the ASD section:
- When you equip SR/MR 5/5, your ASD goes from 100% to 107% (+7%). The overall damage increase is 107/100 = 7%
- After equipping Elrianode 4/4, your ASD goes from 107% to 117% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 117/110 = 9.35%
- After stage 15 Void, your ASD goes from 117% to 127% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 127/117 = 8.54%
- After equipping MR 4/4, your ASD goes from 127% to 137% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 137/127 = 7.9%
- After equipping 5*Enh, your ASD goes from 137% to 187% (+50%). The overall damage increase is 187/137 = 36.5%
(Just to reinforce the commutative attribute of addition, keep in mind that it doesn't matter where I add in the MR 4/4 since the end goal is comparing 137% to 187%.)
[Enhancement Level +2] Stacking Gloves
To compare this with Enh+2, assuming a +10, at maximum stacks you'll be sitting on the full, raw 60% bonus damage. Why?
1. Stacking gloves are a completely separate multiplier from ASD.
2. When a damage multiplier is from only one source, you get the full benefits from it.
3. For Stacking gloves to fall off as much as ASD, there would have to be other sources that add with the Gloves, but obviously there are none.
2. When a damage multiplier is from only one source, you get the full benefits from it.
3. For Stacking gloves to fall off as much as ASD, there would have to be other sources that add with the Gloves, but obviously there are none.
Based on this, if you were to compare things solely from a damage standpoint, the short answer to the question is No, ASD wouldn't be as good as Stacking gloves.
The long answer is that it depends.
Some classes will definitely be able to make more use and arguably be much better off with it like Code: Escensia as each of her tiers has something good in it that's used often. MEB, Tesla Flare, Heaven's Fist - Sweeper and Genocide Ripper (and DLG). It also depends on the dungeon. If say you're fighting Drabaki where you'd be throwing out skills left right and centre regardless, using ASD would be a needless loss in damage. If a dungeon has its monsters very widely spread out and most of your time is spent travelling instead of hitting things, needing to whiff skills for stacks will very quickly become a pain and a huge waste of potions.
Using ASD would also be preferred if you're already at the stage where you have perfect gear and want to start optimising for cost instead of damage. This means that you wouldn't need to whiff up to 300MP (or even more) just to maintain stacks, or if there's someone lagging behind, you wouldn't need to whiff more than 1 skill and mess up your next few skill rotations for the following room and potentially the entire dungeon.
With all that said and done, it's also important to keep in mind that if you don't really care about damage too much and don't have any other sources of ASD, you'd be comparing the full blown 50% overall damage increase from ASD with the 60% bonus damage from Stacking Gloves. This means that you'd essentially be sitting on a pair of stacking gloves permanently at about 4 stacks (4 stacks x 12 = 48, which is close to 50) as opposed to having to work to get a 5th stack and needing to constantly refresh its duration.
If you don't have a pair of Stacking gloves due to them being removed before you had a chance to get them, don't worry about it. From what we can see so far, the design of Varnimyr dungeons look like they strongly favour ASD gloves due to how spread out they are. However, if you're still tossing up between the 2, ideally you'd want to make both of the gloves anyway such that you can swap them in and out depending on the content and class you're playing. Don't forget that you can get ASD on Heroic gloves too. ASD also affects anything that does damage based on your M/ATK, so things like Nature orbs and pets are affected too.
4. How all this applies to min-maxing
Adding All Attack Up (Attack or Magic Attack increase) +X%
This may surprise you, but additive properties also apply to equipment parts that give +X% Attack. Two examples I can immediately think of are Ignia's Accessories 4/4 and Dimension of Sinister Intent (DOSI) 3/3. I'll be abbreviating it to AAU, short for All Attack Up for the sake of keeping it clean.
This is what it'll look like:
- When you equip Ignia 4/4, your AAU goes from 100% to 104% (+4%). The overall damage increase is 104/100 = 4%
- After equipping DOSI 3/3, your AAU goes from 104% to 107% (+3%). The overall damage increase is 107/104 = 2.88%
- When you equip Ignia 4/4, your AAU goes from 100% to 104% (+4%). The overall damage increase is 104/100 = 4%
- After equipping DOSI 3/3, your AAU goes from 104% to 107% (+3%). The overall damage increase is 107/104 = 2.88%
What happens to the 1% ASD part of DOSI 3/3 you may ask? That gets added together with the list of ASD stuff and is multiplied later with TSD and Stacking gloves. This also applies to the Rank 1 Henir Title, God of Dimensions, which gives 10% AAU. However, given that we now know that things that are additive drop off, that 10% AAU doesn't necessarily translate to a 10% overall damage increase.
Adding Critical Damage
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The adding of stat values from before also applies to Critical Damage, except that instead of starting at 100%, it starts at 150% because that's what our base critical damage is. Now that we know that we're expecting the overall damage increase to be dropping off, let's look at some realistic examples:
Say you already have HL 4/5 for an extra 10% Critical damage. The overall increase? You guessed it, it's not 10%! It's 160/150 = 1.067, or a 6.7% increase in damage. Doing the same, assume you want to grab EOvD for another 10% Critical damage on top of HL 4/5. The overall damage increase is 6.25%.
In a more readable format, this is what it'll look like:
- When you equip HL 4/5, your Crit damage goes from 150% to 160% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 160/150 = 6.7%
- After equipping EOvD, your Crit damage goes from 160% to 170% (+10%). The overall damage increase is 170/160 = 6.25%
Min-Maxing in practice
This 6.7% is significant because Mariposa and SR give 7% ASD, which will amount to a 7% overall damage increase assuming you've got no other sources of ASD. Assuming you're completely naked and are at base values (remember that Crit damage starts at 150, and ASD at 100), Mariposa/SR will be better than HL 4/5 by such a tiny amount (7% vs 6.7%) that it's really only worth looking into if you're trying to squeeze out as much damage as possible. I bring this up because a lot of people tend to ask if getting HL 4/5 is preferred over Mariposa 5/5.
This builds on the concept of additive things dropping off. To maximise your damage output, you'd want to build more of the stat you're lacking since the more of an additive stat you stack, the lower the overall damage increase you get. It'll reach a point where investing more into another damage multiplier is more beneficial, i.e. if you keep pumping just ASD, it'll reach a point where pumping Crit damage will be giving you a better overall damage increase.
To help make all of this clearer, let's look at a rather common min-maxing example:
Let's grab some random numbers, and say that you've got 50% ASD and 36% bonus Critical Damage from 4 parts Elrianode gear +10 and are trying to figure out if 7% ASD or 10% Crit damage will give you more damage (Salvatore Rosso/Mariposa vs Henir Lord)
- Your current ASD is 50%. If you were to use Mariposa 5/5, your ASD would increase from 150% to 157% (+7%). The overall damage increase would be 4.67%
- Your current Critical damage is 150 + 36 = 186%. If you were to use Henir Lord 4/5, your Crit damage would increase from 186% to 196% (+10%). The overall damage increase would be 5.38%
What this means is that at this specific moment in time, if you had these stats and were picking between the two, you'd go with Henir Lord because it would be giving you a higher overall damage increase compared to if you were to take Salvatore Rosso or Mariposa. If say you're going to be choosing between another source of ASD and Critical damage, you'd do the same comparison as before to see which would give you more damage and pick that one. Again, you'd want to pump the stat you have the least of.
If you've made it to the end, thank you for taking the time to read this, and hopefully you learnt something new today. The concepts introduced here don't just apply to Elsword, they can be applied to any game.
Take it slow, there's no rush, and good luck with the grind.
Huge thanks to Ashallia for doing the proof-reading. :birbhug:
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