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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class234630}}
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    Make Hitstun Recovery A Constant Value

    Whenever you are hit by an attack, your character performs an animation related to being hit - your character has to finish this animation before he or she can do anything else. How fast you do this is based on your attack speed, which increases the speed at which you complete animations. This fact makes attack speed very impactful in PvP, as you can end up escaping from a combo that isn't secure if your attack speed is high enough.

    ...however, lately, this fact has become an issue in itself.

    Currently, players have ways to get more socket space than ever before - Legendary Weapons (Raid weapons and the Void weapon), IB weapons, and +9/+10 Elrianode armors provide means to surpass past limits, and have more freedom with stats. Naturally, though, not every player has the resources to obtain of all these. This creates the problem where players who have these items can build very high attack speed (nearing 30%), forcing other players to do the same if they don't want to have these people get out of their combos.

    The problems with attack speed overloading hitstun recovery don't end with simple sockets. Players can also surpass the 30% limit by using Party Attack Speed effects from Heroic or Elrianode armor (assuming those players have these effects).

    There are also various passives and abilities that grant bonus attack speed to some classes - some of which are not normalized. (Refer to High Speed for an example) Paired with already-high attack speed, comboing some of these players can become nearly impossible for certain classes.

    I must also briefly note the NA server can often result in laggy matches, which already makes confirming and keeping catches on players difficult. As it stands, attack speed increasing hitstun recovery only serves to worsen the problems lag causes.

    ===========================

    What would I want instead? I would like to separate hitstun recovery from attack speed entirely. I would like the animation speed for hitstun recovery to be fixed at a single value - perhaps the speed animations complete at with 20% attack speed right now. No buffs or debuffs would change this value.

    Having constant hitstun recovery would help minimize issues caused by lag - with attack speed no longer hastening hitstun recovery, catching becomes more stable and more reliable. This would also help reduce the chances of players getting skill storage - skills that come out for the opponent despite the caster being hit first and never actually using the move - by hitting skill keys while being attacked.

    If hitstun recovery was constant, the requirements on attack speed for players, especially newer ones, become a lot more lenient. Certainly, they would need a decent amount of attack speed to make their combos connect successfully, but nothing more than that - they would not have to worry about other players flooding their attack speed stat to prevent combos from happening, and could focus on other sockets. This also prevents Party Attack Speed effects, as well as class-specific increases to attack speed, from drastically shifting the match in one player's favor.

    Lastly, changing hitstun recovery in this way helps prevent the listed problems without limiting everything else attack speed does. Attack speed can still be used to complete commands and special actives faster, allowing people to get MP from attacks more quickly and use a wider variety of moves during combos. Having a single value for hitstun animation speed doesn't harm this, and might even let more variance in combos be available.



    Thank you all for listening to my idea - if you have any questions or input on this topic, I'd love to hear it.
    71
    Yes, constant hitstun recovery would be a great change.
    85.92%
    61
    No, constant hitstun recovery would not benefit the game.
    8.45%
    6
    *Neutral*
    5.63%
    4
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    Petition - Make Hitstun Recovery Constant

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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class242335}}
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    #2
    In memory of my placement matches with the most recent PvP league, I'm bumping up this thread.

    Of the 10 1v1 placement matches I had, due to attack speed overloading (potentially in combination with some latency), 5 of my opponents were jumping out of my 25% attack speed combos - combos that are normally secure. I'd love to be able to not worry about this happening and know that my attacks will actually function properly in a match.
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    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class242815}}
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      #3
      Yes please, this would make more since. 1 yes vote
      The Guardian of War, With his Indomitable Will - Comet Crusader
      The Incarnate of Fire itself that Eats even Flames - Flame Lord
      plus other characters i need to grind 3rd job for

      Best guild~ [FallenCrescent]
      https://forum.elsword.koggames.com/f...fallencrescent

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      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class243420}}
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        #4
        +1 Support

        Youtube: Stratagem

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        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class243484}}
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          #5
          my support too

          (Signature done by MichaelScott)
          The path of Wind Mastery (Anemos PvP Guide)
          Show HP bar percentage numbers?

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          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class249550}}
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            #6
            Stopping by to bump up the thread.

            I do know that I've talked about this topic a lot, but I haven't shown the problem in action. Does anyone want me to make a small compilation of attack speed overloading (potentially combined with lag) being a problem in Arena matches, to showcase the issue?
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            • Class: {{esusrinfo_class250755}}
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              #7
              friendly bump of support

              Youtube: Stratagem

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              • Class: {{esusrinfo_class255198}}
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                #8
                Bumping up the thread.

                If anyone wants examples of what I'm talking about, feel free to let me know - I can refer you to some examples that happened in KR, as well as a few here in NA that I've recorded myself.
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                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class268110}}
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                  #9
                  As someone who wouldn't PvP at all if they could, I'm entirely neutral on this idea, though I can certainly see how this would help with the health of the PvP environment overall...

                  That said, it may be impossible. I suspect that the reason why this happens is because attack speed is applied to animation speed, which leads to the improved hit-stun recovery. If this is indeed the case... coding things to remove the effects of attack speed from that one specific animation is going to be the kind of pain that I doubt any sane developer will want to work on without a much more serious incentive.
                  Obsessive CEm main. Dedicated summoner. I hate arena, but I'll still do it for events and consumables. That said, I will just not fight 95% of the time I see OoR or Eclipse.

                  --Currently re-organizing after my 2-ish month break. Might take a while, cuz I'm lazy...--

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                  • XxPlaz2xX-solace-
                    XxPlaz2xX-solace- commented
                    Editing a comment
                    As a developer, I can confirm that re-coding this is highly painful, but can be done overnight. It also could be as easy as taking a breath. It all depends of how you coded it, and what language you chose. A great thing for you to know is that you would NOT have to mess with any animation. The variable in itself affects the animation, there are not separate animations for different hitstun speeds.
                    Last edited by XxPlaz2xX-solace-; 06-17-2018, 11:13 AM.
                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class270495}}
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                  #10
                  Originally posted by Daetia
                  That said, it may be impossible. I suspect that the reason why this happens is because attack speed is applied to animation speed, which leads to the improved hit-stun recovery. If this is indeed the case... coding things to remove the effects of attack speed from that one specific animation is going to be the kind of pain that I doubt any sane developer will want to work on without a much more serious incentive.
                  Honestly, from my viewpoint, it doesn't sound like it would be too difficult a task. I'm going to use my computer science foundation to try and explain why as best I can.

                  I remember that Elsword is coded in the Lua programming language. Lua is a language that supports object-oriented programming. Objects are instances of classes, which can basically be described as custom sets of variables and methods (groups of commands that achieve a task) that any object of the class has access to.

                  Because of this, assuming that the game was coded decently, it's likely that abstraction was used for creating the classes for animations. Abstraction involves creating a class with certain properties purely for the purpose of having other objects inherit them later on. It would be used to store variables (say, base animation speed) that every object of the type might end up using (every animation needs to have a speed/duration set for it). It is also quite likely that all the animations in the game inherit from this abstract class, then add any additional variables they might need that are specific to them (e.g. animations for a special active and receiving hitstun might have different requirements for their variables).

                  Given the current state of the game, it might be safe to assume that the abstract class contains the property for animations (of all kinds) to speed up according to attack speed - naturally, this would mean hitstun recovery would inherit this property.

                  Though, if that is the case, all that would be necessary would be to have hitstun recovery no longer inherit from that abstract class. Instead, it would just need a custom, highly similar class of its own, with changes that cause attack speed to no longer affect it. Every in-game character could utilize (or at the very least, inherit from) this same class for their hitstun animations.

                  Ultimately, I think it would only come down to modifying the properties of a singular class - in my eyes, that seems like a pretty reasonable task.
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                  • WeissritterX-solace-
                    Editing a comment
                    This. Worst-case scenario, they will just have to update the attack speed code to exclude it's effect on any animation with whatever the asset name for the hitstun animation is.

                    Shouldn't take much time or effort either way. Some active skills like siege already ignore attack speed modifiers while other special actives like Dread Chase are explicitly affected by it.
                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class283750}}
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                  #11
                  Support. Never want to have to deal with the disgustingness of people jumping out of decently quick combos again.

                  That said, speed stacking is one of the few counters to Chung's absurd lingering hitstun on his melee cannon attacks. That's going to need to be seriously addressed if this is to go through.

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                  • WeissritterX-solace-
                    Editing a comment
                    Chung's hitstun isn't going to be able to get lowered much without increasing his base attack animation speed. Would you be fine with that?
                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class292833}}
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                  #12
                  Well, I got some pretty important information. From what someone else has told me, the "Party Attack Speed +%" effect on Elrianode equipment is even more powerful than I realized.

                  For those who don't know, Elrianode effects that give the party a % increase in a stat aren't flat values - they base the percentage on how much you have invested in that stat.

                  For instance, say you have 50% critical socketed, and you have a "Party's Critical +10%" effect. From this effect, you will get:

                  50% critical * 0.1 = 5% critical from the Elrianode effect, so you have
                  50% + 5% = 55% critical overall, NOT 60%.



                  However, attack speed's party effect has a quirk: it actually counts your base animation speed as 100% attack speed.

                  Because of this, if you have 20% attack speed socketed, you have 120% attack speed overall. If you have a "Party's Attack Speed +10%" effect, you won't have a (20% * 0.1 = ) 2% boost. You'll have a (120% * 0.1 = ) 12% boost to attack speed. And again, the boost from the Elrianode effect isn't normalized, so players are getting this boost in full.


                  Given that, it's no wonder overloading the attack speed stat has caused so many problems.
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                  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class295298}}
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                    #13
                    Over the past couple of weeks, I've had a couple of matches that I would have genuinely enjoyed, both against friends and skilled players alike. Attack speed overloading messing up my combos was the SOLE reason I had any bitterness in me from these matches. (Most vivid among them were matches against Anemos players.)

                    So, I'm bumping this - I want to be able to like my opponents, not hate them because a broken game mechanic.
                    Last edited by Hitotsuoboe-solace-; 06-07-2018, 04:09 PM.
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                    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class295745}}
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                      #14
                      I voted no for many reasons.

                      First off your removing the attack speed from the hit stun to make it a constant value but people can still build attack speed to hit faster with massive hit stun delay, if there is no way to combat this you would need to remove attack speed for everything in general to balance it out which tbh isn't a bad idea but there are some many effects already, that increase your attack speed. To much work this won't benefit at all.

                      There are heavy hit stuns in the game for a few examples Chung with most cannon hits and missile hit stun, Ara with hit stun delay on some commands, actives and some of her Special actives. Another one would be Ain with xxx if you make this a constant value without taking into any thought of consideration at what attack speed can do to these things and how they can abuse it to then make this change is in my opinion really stupid.

                      It's not a bad idea but it has no given thought into classes, commands, actives or real hit stun value to anyone sorry a NO for me.

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                      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class295840}}
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                        #15
                        Originally posted by ninjaskingg-solace- View Post
                        I voted no for many reasons.

                        First off your removing the attack speed from the hit stun to make it a constant value but people can still build attack speed to hit faster with massive hit stun delay, if there is no way to combat this you would need to remove attack speed for everything in general to balance it out which tbh isn't a bad idea but there are some many effects already, that increase your attack speed. To much work this won't benefit at all.

                        There are heavy hit stuns in the game for a few examples Chung with most cannon hits and missile hit stun, Ara with hit stun delay on some commands, actives and some of her Special actives. Another one would be Ain with xxx if you make this a constant value without taking into any thought of consideration at what attack speed can do to these things and how they can abuse it to then make this change is in my opinion really stupid.

                        It's not a bad idea but it has no given thought into classes, commands, actives or real hit stun value to anyone sorry a NO for me.
                        If you get hit by something with heavy hitstun and the opponent is in a position to follow up, it should be an expectation that you get caught; you should not be expecting to be able to get out of it. And besides, I'm pretty sure that things with heavy hitstun are generally the least affected by the opponent's Attack Speed, since Attack Speed only affects the animation, and not the hitstop/delay before it.

                        People should not be required to have really high Attack Speed just to maintain a combo on certain people, especially with the current terrible dual stat stone options that don't give good options for socketing Movement and Jump Speed and the existing problem with skill hitboxes still activating when skills are cancelled. If there are really issues with certain attacks having too much hitstun, those issues should be fixed instead of keeping an issue that increases the required stat value to expect things to work like they're supposed to.
                        Known as Meseki on the old forums (and most other places).

                        Mains:Lyrima (EW) Leysiel(MtM) Linrei(Apsara) Subs: Tielina(NL) Senyil(RS) Sylfeia(T.Asura) Sumiel(T.VP) Azuryne(T.NB) Sianri(NW) Zainyr(ATh) Niaren(T.CrA) Ripani(T.Demonio) Miasyl(GrM) Serimia(T.EM) Miseil(Anemos) Aerino(Freyja) Rinmi(T.CN) Selane(GA) Requina(YR) Inactive:Meseki(LK) Zenite(BM) Reilis(CBS) Ralken(LP)

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                        • animeteam-solace-
                          animeteam-solace- commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Leysiel-solace- Yea i already know but it's that broken which helps us counter a broken stun locking combo, considering attributes, effects elements are a very normal thing in pvp if you adjust it to have not one way out there are Privileged classes without a worry of Kd rate, while gaining high amounts of Mp they have fire attribute of a sudden there's nothing you can do no point trying to make something "fair", when everything else isn't.

                          Kog has already said there pushing away from pvp hence no Ereda island separate tool tips, It has a benefit if removed no more skill storage or being hit by a random skill while your hitting them, or will it? Removing attack speed to reduce animation time while being hit is a good idea but everything else is left and pushed away.

                          Because this can help most Ciel's considering there x commands come with barely any hit stun, however you need to keep in mind just because you want to remove the attack speed effecting the animation duration. That means water has no use if attack speed can no longer effect the animation water would also not slow them down nor will any slow moving debuff either because if you kept the ability to slow down the animation by reducing there speed how is that fair.

                          If you remove this you remove any real slow debuff in the game otherwise it's not fair, considering water is an element that can be applied to your weapon. Personally to me i would love it because then no slow debuff can effect you but that would be my only reason why i would say yes to this.

                        • Leysiel-solace-
                          Leysiel-solace- commented
                          Editing a comment
                          ninjaskingg-solace- Resistance exists to deal with attributes, and it's your responsibility to resist Fire, since it's one of the most important to resist. Mana Breaking is the intended method to get out of infinites, there isn't a fundamental problem if making Attack Speed not affect hitstun makes it harder to get out of infinites in other ways; if anything, it would get people complaining more about characters who are too good at neutral/catching so that KOG would be under more pressure to fix things (and most of those problem characters probably wouldn't even be significantly affected by this compared to some weaker characters that may benefit).

                          In the past year or two, KOG has been doing balance patches (most of which affect PvP) more often than they ever did beforehand, so at the very least they care about looking like they're trying to fix things. Ereda doesn't have separate tooltips because it'd be a waste of effort compared to how little people play it. Skill storage would still happen even if hitstun wasn't affected by Attack Speed, but decently competent and prepared players would likely deal with it noticeably less with that change.

                          As for Attack Speed slowing effects, I'm pretty sure people would be satisfied if they made it so that hitstun could still be affected by negative Attack Speed but not positive Attack Speed. But even if they didn't/couldn't do that, a significant Attack Speed difference would still make it difficult to start/keep a combo or win hit trades, and in the case of the Water attribute, it still has a defense debuff on it.

                        • animeteam-solace-
                          animeteam-solace- commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Leysiel-solace- Fair enough however this seems to end in agree to disagree good chat none the less but for now my answer stays at a no sadly.
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