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command damage is whack

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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415659}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level415659}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild415659}}

    command damage is whack

    with renewals widening the gap between each class's physical and magic stats, commands that are of the wrong damage type are now even worse off than before. while some classes will have their most commonly used normals match their primary stat, others won't be so lucky.

    for example, at endgame, cu's physical attack stat is a little less than 40% of her magical attack stat. this means the effective multiplier per hit on her commands look something like this:

    apart from >>x, cu's combos will average ~150-170%/hit with below average mp gain, with her Z inputs only ever seeing use out of necessity. sariel is probably in a similar boat. meanwhile, the physical eve path averages 265%/hit with just base eve's zzzx slap. aka being the right attack type results in CEs doing over 1.5x the command damage of the other eves.

    i don't think command damage should vary so much between a character's 3 paths solely due to attack type, but i also think the numbers on commands in general need to be looked at. within a class, numbers on commands define optimal play, and when they're set by a monkey with a dartboard, optimal play becomes boring to execute and boring to watch. between classes, huge variations in these numbers result in silly situations like destruction elboy doing several times the damage of many weaker classes. while i definitely agree that some characters should do significantly more command damage than others, the difference atm feels a bit much
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415661}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level415661}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild415661}}

    I don't know about CS PvP, but CU is fine without her Z's also doing insane damage since her XX>X, XXZ~Z, >>ZX, >>^ZX and ZZ(Z)X commands are good enough and entirely loopable as well, and she gets a ton of MP to cycle for skills:


    • Latale-solace-
      Latale-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      electronballs do CEs z damage/hit at half the mp gained:mp fed, xx>x is just a CEs z
      xxz~z can be mashed out of in most use cases due to the electronball speedup and does CEs z damage
      djz(z)x is below average in dmg/hit and mp gain even by cu standards
      zz(z)x starts with several z hits, making the entire thing average an effective ~160%/hit aka the damage of CEs looping z

      she gets a ton of mp due to qt making zzzvzz usable and increasing mp gain to elboy vitality levels, which pretty makes it a janky wots she has to ramp into. outside of qt, cu's mp gain relative to mp fed is below average due to electronballs, drill hits, and xxzz spears all being less than half as good as a standard z at generating mp. even then, none of that really matters when you have access to multiple <100mp booms--so long as you're doing enough damage to not literally get tanked to death every match, you'll win enough matches for a youtube video.

      anyways, the purpose of the post isn't waaaaaah cu bad, but rather to point out that there are huge differences in command damage caused by simply being the wrong attack type--my +10sd CEs's zzzx does as much damage as my +11foj CU's zzzx. CEs isn't even a class with crazy command damage; in comparison to KE destruction normals, most classes' commands are good for little more than mp gain. for characters with normals of both attack types, this new difference in attack stats will either result in commands feeling more restrictive if there are viable alternatives(aka ni using more djzxx instead of sword inputs) or just str8up nerfed if there aren't(aka devi's commands being reduced even further in2 the depths of cd stall filler)

      a large difference in command damage between classes also justifies a large difference in utility to keep classes with weaker commands playable. in the end, this is partially to blame for the meta we have now where some classes just never have to play neutral while others can win off tank in2 awaken.

      also waaaaaaah cu bad

    • DreamKR-solace-
      DreamKR-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      I mean, if you keep saying "Oh but this attack is as good as CE's Zs" when said attack is things people actively use, then I don't see the problem? Like, if the effective damage of CU's ZZ(Z)X and CEs ZZZ<<> is the same, that sounds good to me lol. CEs gets her MP from commands, CU gets hers from her passive giving her MP for damage lost which also lets her get QT faster which in turn gives her more MP.

      Characters that actively suffer from this (relatively minor) issue would be CS (who doesn't get magic commands that are easy to loop unlike CU), NI due to them reverting his loopable XX, Devi, and uh...uhm...yeah that's about it.

      Characters that are too powerful because of this however, like Destruction Elboi, well, that's more an issue with destruction mode than Elboi's commands.

      And being able to jump out of command strings is another issue ENTIRELY. XXZ~Z or even just XX>X looping should not be escapable the way it is, and half of the issue there is attack speed affecting hitstun duration. They need to get rid of that and plenty more command options open up to be viable again on a bunch of classes.

    • Latale-solace-
      Latale-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      i emphasized base z because it's typically one of the weakest normals in a character's toolkit. it's actively used because people tend to want to hit their opponents with something rather than with nothing.

      cu's zzz does less than half the damage of ce's zzz. cu's zzzX does less damage than ce's zzzX. so no, effective damage is nowhere near the same.

      cu's mp gain is propped up by mod qt's zzzvzz, but outside of qt, her bread and butter combos are pretty trash in terms of mp gain per hit. thanks to zzx drill returning all of 2 mp, in the same number of hits it takes cu to zzx her way to her first qt, most renewal'd elboy and rena paths would've been able to build enough resources to nearly kill their opponents irl. even with the whopping 60mp for losing 100%hp passive, her mp gain isn't much 2 b envied

      butagain, not rly the purpose of the thread to whine about cu

      characters that actively suffer from this include literally any character that might want to use commands that aren't of their main atk type. the severity of the issue certainly varies, but even on cu who you seem to think has usable matk normals, i can assure you a fix to the attack type disparity would be a bigger deal than an additional weapon enhancement level.

      a lot of normals are broken not so much because hitstun is affected by aspd as they r due to kog being kog--i doubt aspd reduces recovery frames more than it reduces attack animation fraems.

      using cu again as an example, many spear inputs are too inconsistent to be used because their hitboxes aren't tied to eve's animations aka there's a layer of client sided wobbliness as to whether a spear will land before its preceding hitstun ends. commands that follow after electronballs can also now be hopped out of because they sped up the electronball casting animation and left the followup animations untouched. i guess a thing to note is that the further you move away from base job, the more recent the commands tend 2 b, and the more recent the commands tend 2b, the higher the odds are that they'll be nonfunctional because the quality of the interns doing kog's programming seems to decline year after year.

      all this means that many classes have a pretty large reliance on their base job commands even if they have decent path-specific commands on paper. kinda a pretty bad spot 2 b in when being the wrong attack type leads to potentially half of your base job commands doing less than half their "usual" damage, which is a big part of why command damage is whack.

      the other part is due 2 some classes being given big ol 3-400%+ normals while others are stuck with base zs.
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class416851}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level416851}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild416851}}

    normal command is useless in Endgame anyway. And I not seeing Eve players using normals in pve anymore.


    • Niwatari-solace-
      Niwatari-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      We are in the pvp sub forum here, so obviously commands are... an important part of the gameplay to say the least.
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class418182}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level418182}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild418182}}

    Try being a DB in PVP. Even my NACs do whack damage -- that is, if they even teleport correctly the opponent doesn't mash out of it or if the opponent doesn't have light resist. And with the speed buff they removed, I feel much, much slower and have never been able to maneuver as well since.


    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class418499}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level418499}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild418499}}

      We’re gonna have to also consider that the Competition Set (Rigomor set), which is designed for PvP, allows access to both Atk Spd and Phy/Mag Atk buffs rather than only Atk Spd for the most important effect(s).

      Also, rather than only worrying about command damage, KOG is beyond overdue with command utility especially in PvP. Excessive hitbox sizes and lingering hitstun make PvP really unfair when it comes to neutral, which is a common occurrence in PvP and is a huge factor in determining dominance in the match. It’s extremely laughable when comparing Raven’s commands to Laby’s or Chung’s commands.
      Last edited by ImmortalSage-solace-; 08-12-2019, 09:54 PM.


      • Damatte-solace-
        Damatte-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        Speaking of this new area, question: what current set does it behave more like? Secret, Heroic, or lv 99 start kit, i mean Elri?

      • Latale-solace-
        Latale-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        easier to push numbers around than 2 change hitboxes

        i dont have faith in devs' ability to do anything more complicated than number pushing

      • XxPlaz2xX-solace-
        XxPlaz2xX-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        I'm still waiting for NACs to teleport properly and Psion Rush to quit ghosting through opponents. That being said, the Rigomor set only increases the power gap, as the CP requirements mean a +12 Void/Raid weapon +10/11 perfect Elrianode gear meta. Even with a +10 maxed Void with 80% ASD and 100% crit and maxi, my DB didn't even reach 300k before I changed that set to a PVP one. Class is a significant factor in CP.
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