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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396204}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level396204}}
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    PvP Revamp + Balance Changes

    Being heavily interested in the PvP Scene and now that I'm sure most of the PvP mains had a chance to play around with Arena -- I do want to hear more in-depth thoughts...

    What are your thoughts on the PvP Revamp and Balance Changes?
    Signature by (And Massive Thanks to) stelar
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396212}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level396212}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild396212}}

    #2
    Yeah, there's more spammers than ever before. This is in due to the now horrid ping this game has had since they merged servers with NA. You cannot keep a combo because they will just ghost right through it, and you will ghost through there combos as well. It seems like people know this and manipulate it somehow. For Add and characters with linear combos, players can just hold the direction you're not facing and walk right out of your combos, and I can confirm this as I've tried it to see if it works. As a DB and IM, in the middle of a combo, I just ghost through the opponent and they're free to then catch me. This has been much worse since the update and now people ghost through EVERY SINGLE COMBO I do. This "ghosting" has resulted in un-earned wins on both my part and my opponents' parts. Also, the balance patch didn't seem to do a thing. In fact, damage is much higher in arena, and my Immortal with over 440k+ HP and max reduced damage is not tanking a single hit anymore, when I used to slay SSS ranks with a +4 and max red. damage, max speed, 440k+ HP, and 23% piercing. It seems like red damage and defense in general is now useless, and the lag makes escaping combos and spamming as common as a Pidgey. In short terms, They ♥♥♥♥ed up. This did nothing good for the game other than make AP relatively easy to gain.
    Last edited by XxPlaz2xX-solace-; 03-09-2019, 02:57 PM.

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    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396217}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level396217}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild396217}}

      #3
      TL;DR: Definitely better than the previous seasons. Arena is less gear reliant, and feels a lot more skill based. With sparring gear now being viable, a lot more people are given a fair chance to compete in arena, and the top tier characters getting great nerfs (EW and Oz), arena feels more enjoyable but character balance is still a problem.

      1. Extremely good PvP balance patch, with characters, titles and force skills getting hit.

      Curse of Chaos finally got its well needed nerf, but better late than never I guess. KoG nerfing Sacrifice, a title you can only get buy spending real money and extremely busted for PvP? Gives me a little faith in KoG if they're willing to nerf a p2w title.

      Moving onto the force active changes, the issue with Lightning Chain is its hitstun, not its damage. Really confused on why KoG keeps nerfing the damage of it. Hyper Accel and Drain's rare version basically got buffed to usable levels, while Obtenebration got a slight nerf, Fog of Death a huge nerf, and El's Aspiration. All of these changes are good, but force actives/passives are still unhealthy for PvP at their Unique grade levels.

      MY FAVORITE PART THE PATCH, CHARACTER BALANCE. OZ SORCERER HAS BEEN BROKEN FOR WAY TOO LONG. EVERYONE WAS SUFFERING WHILE OZ WAS COMPLETELY DOMINANT IN ARENA FOR OVER 3 MONTHS AFTER ALL THE TOP TIERS GOT NERFED. Ahem, the Oz nerf was a very healthy change for PvP and I'm glad KoG hit all the strong points of that character in one patch. EW is another character that got her strong points nerfed, but still a very good class overall. Not going to go over every character, just wanted to name those two.

      2. This free season is less reliant on gear and helps arena feel more skill-based.

      With the attack power difference between enhancement levels being decreased, everything is doing less damage. Before this free season, I remember just shredding the same people. Now, against the same people, I can't seem to do it anymore, so the change is very noticeable. With gear being less of a factor, matches are now lasting much longer (I even got a few timeouts, when that was rare for me before), and does really help arena feel more skill-based. UNFORTUNATELY even with gear being less of a factor, character balance just became that much more of a bigger thing. I think this season will favor characters that have a lot utility and good command damage.

      Please don't get confused. Having better gear still gives you an advantage over your opponents. Games just feel way less reliant on gear now. Before in arena we could say the ratio would be 60% gear, 30% character, 10% skill. Now it looks something like 30% gear, 50% character, 20% skill (just rough numbers don't take it as the gospel).

      3. Sparring gear is now a viable option.

      Jeez. I can't remember the last time I saw people even thinking about bringing their spar gear for high ranked matches in arena. Think the last time was in 2012 or 2013? Point is, spar gear has been useless for a long while. But the change to sparring weapon is actually incredible.

      A +10 sparring weapon basically has the same raw stats of a +11 VOID. Obviously Void is still the better choice due to the more socket options it has, and also being able to mystic enchant it with stones or discs, giving you a bunch of free stats which is super important for saving sockets.

      If you don't have at least a +10 Void weapon for pvp, Elrianode armor and a +10 Sparring weapon is definitely the way to go. Heck, if you're too lazy or can't afford Elrianode for your alts, sparring armor will suffice very well too, but ultimately you still want Elrianode armor with a sparring weapon.

      4. Ranking up is faster overall. 1v1 viable for ranking up again?

      With the change of ranking now being RP based instead of % based, ranking up is now faster overall. This is a good thing because it always felt like ranking up took a while. Now if you're good, you can get rewarded for it more easily. This also means if you aren't too great, you'll find yourself deranking and losing your rank just as fast. Before, the highest you can gain/lose from a match would be 6.89%. Now, I find myself losing over 20% on a loss because I'm so high. Kinda harsh. But I'm also gaining just as much when beating higher ranked on my alt characters lol.

      5. Getting queued with others is a lot faster now. NPCs are always at a set time, instead of only being given once matching with another player(s). No more cancelled queues due to NPCs.

      If you're in a party and queue for 2v2s, you'll find yourself consistently getting NPCs at the 2:40 minute mark, which means NPCs are based on the queue time rather than being queue time + matching with other players. So no more being in queue for 10 mins+ when all you wanted was a NPC match at the 3 min mark.

      Getting paired up with other people can be almost instant now. I got so many less than 5 second queues. I'm guessing this change came about when with the NPC queue change above.

      6. NPCs not giving % anymore. No more climbing the ranking boards by fighting NPCs all day.

      I noticed that even at S rank, NPCs are no longer giving me % anymore. Before this change, NPCs always gave you % no matter what, so it was very easy to climb the boards if you queued into them all day. With this change, the ranking boards become a little bit more meaningful and not a contest of who can kill the most NPCs in a day.

      7. No more double characters in 2v2, practically killing the very cheesy and problematic double Aisha setup in teams.

      8. Hyper Active's damage got gutted, extremely hard.

      This came as a surprise. No where in the patch notes did it say they nerfed the damage of HAs, and to such a low point also. With this, HAs only pro is that it's unmanabreakable damage. With this change, we have to put a little more effort into winning games, which also helps the game feel more skill-based.

      9. A ?????????? change? Map selections for 1v1 and teams do not make sense.

      I guess you can't have pros without cons. The map selection for 1v1 and teams is really weird. For example, why is Durahan Coliseum no longer a team map? HOW IS GARPAI SANDSTORM AN 1V1 MAP, BUT BANNED IN TEAMS? Judge's Heart is still here, but Lanox's Lava and Sander Oasis got deleted????????? Really weird. Hope KoG comes back to this.

      10. Low rank carrying is back again, but gets changed in a later patch.

      Before in arena, the % you gain would be individual instead of shared. Now once again, it's back to being shared.

      For example, before this patch, if a star rank and S ranked team beat a low ranked SSS team, the star ranker would gain 1% or less, while the S rank would gain a 6.89%(max). Now once again, with the star rank and S rank team, the star rank would gain just as much as the S rank would.

      This gets changed in KR's most recent patch, where a SSS ranker cannot party up with someone more than a 450 RP difference. Still possible to easily carry people to SSS, but at least not possible to low rank-cheese the ranking boards anymore.


      I most likely forgot to mention other positive/negative changes, but this took me too long to type. pce out
      Last edited by SsllgHero-solace-; 03-08-2019, 02:37 PM.

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      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396252}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level396252}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild396252}}

        #4
        going to repost what i said in the other thread with some minor alterations 4 visibility

        the pvp balance patch was definitely a step in the right direction, but it really only affected a few high tiers without addressing the fundamental problems that have driven so many people away from what used to be this game's main attraction. if you weren't playing as or against high tiers before, the way you play the game will stillthe general overabundance of resources as well as the skills these resources lead to at higher levels of play need to be addressed. the recent kr fix to mod skills' enhanced traits, while fairly insignificant in the context of the resulting changes to the pvp meta, shows that the devs still fail to acknowledge the danger mp cost reduction poses to a healthy pvp environment.

        i'm not a huge fan of the change to the add dmg formula as the changes stripped away much of what made add dmg special. defense penetration and the inability to benefit from crit/crit damage helped make add dmg especially effective in helping players fight against better geared opponents. in addition, the change to linear scaling with respect to damage % takes away another one of the game's soft balancing mechanics: previously, due to its sublinear growth, add dmg disproportionately benefited lighter hits to make up for their inherent resource feed in comparison to heavier hits, which tend to feed less mp and deal more damage before manabreaking is possible. add dmg was once the primary defender of f2p players against gearlords back when it didn't even scale with attack power, and i'm pretty sad to see it reduced to its current state where it's just another crit/max.

        the sparring equipment change is a huge improvement, but imo not enough to be competitive against gearlords. it allows players to easily step into arena with minimal investment and not instantly get their rears handed to them by anyone with a pvp elrianode set--on many classes, a +10 sparring set is fairly easy to make and gives players a fighting chance against +11void/+9elr. however, it still falls significantly short against +10 and above armor. due to its elite rarity, it misses out on 48% socket value compared to void/rosso+elrianode. it's also missing out on 64% socket value andor significant amounts of hp in circle tears and identification. 19% damage on one skill due to square tears, >10% overall damage from party buffs, >20% overall damage from mystic stones, and probably some more stuff i can't remember off the top of my head. even if the sparring set competes in terms of raw white stats, it's missing out on so much of everything else that a character with +10 sparring equipment is at a larger disadvantage against endgame sets than legit players were against hackers back in season 2.

        i can't say i agree with the no same char teams thing. while it's always been a tournament staple, it's laughable for a pvp mode that's regarded by many as a joke to take itself so seriously. if running two or three of a character on a team makes matches unfun or oppressive to an extent that banning same character teams even needs to be considered, it's the canary in the coal mine telling us maybe that particular character needs to be beaten ugly with the nerf bat. in the end, i don't think it makes a huge difference for na as i can't recall ever seeing more than one or two same character premades, but overall still pretty ??? about the whole thing.

        force skill changes combined with henir making higher rarities more accessible to the average player was pretty nice, but imo elite/unique haunting spirit and fog of death are still far more game changing than any item should be. the hyper accels can also be pretty oppressive on some characters that i'd like to see touched on in pvp, but they're not nearly as ridiculous.



        aaaand some stuff i forgot to mention

        the nerf to lightning chain's damage makes it a lot more reasonable to fight at a gear disadvantage. i think it's actually no longer a huge deal to not have lightning chain as its resource feed and inherent jankiness are now able to offset much of the utility it provides from randomly tapping people in team matches.

        the nerf to weapon enhancement scaling is a huge improvement, but enhancement perks and armor enhancement are still huge issues. the increasing importance of defense due to the change to add dmg has also made it even more advantageous to have +10 or higher elrianode armor, which isn't something f2p players can expect to obtain in a reasonable amount of time. also, healing will likely be even more oppressive than it was last season due to the lower overall damage in matches.

        the nerf to titles was a huge improvement but seriously long overdue. i think they went a bit overboard with curse of chaos tho; i feel a bit bad for the people who spent money on the broken title only to have it nerfed out of viability. sacrifice's change seems a lot more fair; it's still one of the best titles, but it's no longer leagues ahead of its competition.

        the nerf to hypers sounds a bit questionable. i've yet to see them in action, but from the description given by hero, it seems as though there's now an even larger power gap between hypers. if hypers are no longer particularly worth it for their damage alone, the top hypers will be the ones that set up for additional damage from other players. for example, you can still use hypers like gigantic slash or odin spear to give your partner an easy opportunity to do significant amounts of unbreakable damage, but other more janky/jiggly hypers are going to be pretty trash.




        overall, i think this patch did a great job at reducing the barrier to entry for pvp. the changes to sparring equipment have pretty much eliminated differences in equipment in all but the highest ranks, and by creating a large population of players that all run similar equipment, players can finally begin to experience a relatively fair pvp mode that exists outside of sparring. this might lead to a divide in the arena population between f2p players running sparring gear and the whales running the several hundred $ worth of equipment necessary to meaningfully surpass sparring gear, but given the potential size of the sparring geared population, it's quite likely gear will not be a major concern for most players until they're capable of reaching the highest ranks. with the limited population of whales in comparison to the potential population of sparring geared players, it's quite possible that even players with the means to build elrianode sets will simply run sparring equipment to have access to fair matches against a broader range of opponents.

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        • XxPlaz2xX-solace-
          XxPlaz2xX-solace- commented
          Editing a comment
          I understood what you were saying, but for me, defensive stats seem much more susceptible to pure gear power/white stats, as my IM is acting like he has SD armor on. Maybe I'm just constantly facing super-geared players. I have over 444k HP, but I do want more. How would I do bout getting more HP other than getting full +10 armor (since that's never going to happen)? I don't think all the tears in the world can do so, and I don't have much enhancement space, hence my reliance on piercing for damage.
          Last edited by XxPlaz2xX-solace-; 03-09-2019, 03:00 PM.

        • somedayillbe-solace-
          Editing a comment
          i think the only other option for more HP besides relying on enhancements is to use erp. It wont get u much but small ripples can turn into big waves sooner or later if u keep boosting the little things u know?

        • XxPlaz2xX-solace-
          XxPlaz2xX-solace- commented
          Editing a comment
          @somedayillbe Thanks for the advice. I already have max in HP ERP, but I'm trying to add up the small things.
      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396363}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level396363}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild396363}}

        #5
        Map separation for 1vs1 and team mode really should have been done a long time ago, many of the maps wasn't made with 1vs1 in mind. I am glad KOG finally made a right move and restore my faith in the team that still developing this game. Tho you guys made some questionable choices here. Garpai sandstorm should be banned from 1vs1. Elrios bay is innocent and is one of the most refined 1vs1 map in pvp, I dont think I have seen any tournament banning this map. But hey, if I have to choose, I am willing to sacrifice one good map if it means I never have to see all those runner maps ever again.

        Regardless, I still hope you guys rebalance the banned maps so that they can be playable in 1vs1 again. We dont need any overly complicated map with weird mechanic, just some map large enough with lots of platforms (platform that you can move downward and not just a hard floor) so you can dodge aoe skill and still small enough so that we can cornered runners should they choose to play in the non-sportsmanship behavior.

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        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396504}}
          Level: {{esusrinfo_level396504}}
          Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild396504}}

          #6
          Im here waiting for a "fair map" for those 4 characters without doble jump

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          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396540}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level396540}}
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            #7
            People are still teleporting, especially if I use a special active so...

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            • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396593}}
              Level: {{esusrinfo_level396593}}
              Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild396593}}

              #8
              Maybe, I’m ultra dense for this time. However, I barely felt any change because they tried to change everything BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT, character utility/damage. The general results for most matches still end up being the same compared to before. It is a good patch, but I’m really not feeling astounded. A lot of these issues such as runner maps being banned from 1v1 could have been fixed if classes were given proper, fair, accessible anti-air attacks. While I do support nerfing gear for PvP, character capability always ruled above gear because it would not matter how geared a player is if the player’s utility was too low to be able to land a proper series of attacks on the enemy until defeat (ex. it wouldn’t be an extreme thought to imagine a +8 EW beating a +12 NI before this patch). I am aware that KR announced for character revamps. However, I have no expectations at this point.
              Last edited by ImmortalSage-solace-; 03-10-2019, 03:18 AM.

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              • Class: {{esusrinfo_class396944}}
                Level: {{esusrinfo_level396944}}
                Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild396944}}

                #9
                This patch has left me wondering if I should just get rid of all my add damage or not. Since I play Ain, I already reach 100% crit and maxi during 3rd awakening so I could replace add damage to get more speed, command attack, etc.

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                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class397075}}
                  Level: {{esusrinfo_level397075}}
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                  #10
                  As someone who tried out pvp after not doing any matches at all for almost a year now, everything just feels the same. Attack speed issues and class imbalances are still things that seem to plague this mode. While classes feel like they're more balanced now, there's still some that need to be tuned a bit more (keep in mind, this is an assessment from A - S rank; I haven't run into many people who are really good pilots on their classes, nor have I run into more than 15 classes). While I almost never partied for arena, the restriction from having the same character in a party is just dumb. It just seems like a cheap way for KoG to get out of correctly balancing classes. The spar gear changes are nice, but I still feel like they'll get vastly outperformed by a decent purple set. Overall, the mode still doesn't feel accessible for me at all; if I had to choose between pve and pvp, I'd choose to do pve 100% of the time, even though I still like pvp more. The game mode just isn't for me anymore, so I'll stick to watching pvp streams.

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                  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class397234}}
                    Level: {{esusrinfo_level397234}}
                    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild397234}}

                    #11
                    Should hold our tongues until the revamp starts. Adjusting stats doesn't mean jack sugar honey ice tea if characters have easy-nobrain resources compared to the rest of the cast. The only benefit from this patch was the wait times. Other than that it's literally the same and say hello to low lvl carrying again. Fun...
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