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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362504}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level362504}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362504}}

    Traits of a "Fair" Homing Attack?

    Before we get into this discussion, let's define what's meant by a "homing move" in this context.

    A homing move will be any move that launches a projectile that automatically travels towards a target over some distance. This means that moves like Chung's Aiming Shot, Tempest Burster's Lock-On Stratos, and Centurion's Gravity Shelling are NOT considered homing moves here - they fire upon/lock on to their targets immediately without any travel time at all.

    Unfortunately, that does mean moves like Vishnu's Flying Kite and Rage Heart's Mod Maximum Dive fall into this side category of exclusions... but it wouldn't hurt to keep in mind how the topics this discussion might bring up would affect these skills as well.



    Now, I've heard homing moves being brought up quite often in PvP discussions... sadly, in a lot of those cases, those mentions are complaints. It isn't surprising to hear this, though - homing moves can be difficult to get away from or counteract, making them uniquely strong tools for catching or okizeme. In some cases, it could be argued that some homing moves do these jobs far too well, often due to factors of range, lifespan, cost, and more.

    To put things in perspective, I tried to think of a number of homing moves constantly used in PvP - along with some of the most notable aspects about each move - then tried to put them into three categories based on how much I remember them being negatively brought up in PvP contexts. I apologize in advance for any bias that comes from my notes/experiences against these moves.

    There are homing moves that are almost never complained about:
    SPOILERChung's Scare Chase (120 MP: Empowered/Gigantic)
    -945% hybrid damage across two hits
    -Launches target in a direction with explosion - Chung has to be ready to catch off of whatever launch results

    Dominator's Delayed Explosion (30 MP: Haste/Empowered)
    -Slow homing drone
    -Inflicts minor hitstun on attach, normal hitstun on explosion
    -Can be shaken off, unless Mutation Point was used
    -Takes 3 seconds to explode - can armor/I-frame through in reaction
    -480% hybrid damage across two hits (834% with Mutation Point)


    There are homing moves that are sometimes brought up, or are just brought up less often than I would expect:
    SPOILERDaybreaker's Guide Arrow (200 MP: Empowered/Reversed [60% cost])
    -2660% damage across 10 hits if used in awakening
    -Limited homing range - arrows will fly off if target gets too far away from where move was used
    -Arrows have a long lifespan (approx. 8 seconds) - arrows that miss their target last long enough to turn back around if target reenters the radius Guide Arrow was used in, meaning the opponent effectively puts himself/herself in danger while trying to punish a whiffed Guide Arrow
    -Long arrow lifespan means arrows will almost always recatch someone who mana breaks them halfway through

    Innocent's Spectral Spear (100 MP: Heavy/Critical)
    -Up to 9 hits for 1950% damage, depending on soul count
    -Carries opponent in direction of hits

    Code Sariel's Particle Ray, Reactive mode (100 MP: Empowered/Ruthless)
    -Circular initial homing radius around Sariel (including behind her); any beams that follow a target from here have virtually infinite range
    -In Reactive mode, 995% (?) damage across 10 hits when awakened
    -Beam hits will fire Core's laser if it's present


    ...and then there are homing moves that are complained about almost constantly:
    SPOILERFatal Phantom's Bullet Blitz (120 MP [before Intense Showtime], Empowered/Ruthless)
    -Extremely large homing radius due to passives - can track a target across half the screen (but not behind Chung)
    -Hits up to six times with FPh's Endless Chase passive, all of which have hitstun, giving Chung plenty of time to reach the target
    -Projectile has a long lifespan, making it very difficult to contest even with armor/I-frames
    -Up to 1554% damage on a single target (with Endless Chase, assuming Enhanced version) over 6 hits without any debuffs involved

    Shakti's Fox Fire (270 MP and up to 4 orbs, Reversed [60% cost]/Critical)
    -Up to 4310% damage on a single target with 4 Energy used
    -Can have a base cost of 162 MP if Reversed trait is used
    -Freeze/Condemnation procs from flames will prevent mana breaks - this often means you have to have a mana break charged before the skill hits you at all to escape its damage
    -Freeze/Condemnation effects let Shakti get free attacks in on the target after Fox Fire's animation ends

    Fatal Phantom's Mod Burning Punisher (300 MP [before Intense Showtime], Haste/Heavy)
    -Deals 2700% damage on a single target (assuming no debuffs) across 60 hits, 1 MP burned per hit; additional 1350% damage over 30 hits for each additional target
    -Deals 3780% damage on a single target with Heavy trait
    -Extremely high hit rate of move causes enough hitstun to freeze mana break progress - this often means you have to have a mana break charged before the skill hits you at all to escape its damage
    -Very long skill delay that greatly surpasses the skill's animation - opponents who are in I-frames at the start of Burning Punisher will be stuck in place, giving Chung plenty of time to set up nearby and catch them afterwards anyways

    Code Sariel's Needle Cutting (100 MP, Light [80% cost]/Haste)
    -Deals 1056% damage over 132 hits, 2 MP burned per hit
    -Initial needle burst lingers and has a sizable homing range - very difficult to contest this without lengthy I-frames (which might mean a special active for most classes)
    -If attack starts, it goes on for over 3 seconds and drags the target in various directions, but Sariel can follow this rather easily; this attack duration also makes trying to super armor through the move nearly impossible for most classes
    -Forces extremely high awakening gain
    -Some homing patterns can cause multiple needles to hit a target on a single frame - if this happens as the opponent mana breaks, the MP lost to the mana break will greatly increase (it's the same as mana breaking a point-blank Magnum Shot from a Centurion)


    ==========================================

    So, given the examples I've given above, pairing various moves with various levels of observed hostility towards them: what traits does a "fair" homing move have? Please feel free to consider what I've mentioned above, as well as other factors I haven't (e.g. MP gain/feed from the move).

    If I had to point out one last thing, I would bring up the following two homing moves. Both of them have had changes that made them less dangerous in a PvP context. Try to consider both how dangerous the move would have been before its change, and what changed to make it more bearable.

    Daybreaker's Wind Blast: changed from having multiple shots to a single shot; resulted in less instances of hitstun on the target, giving Daybreaker a smaller window to catch off the move
    Aether Sage's Magic Missile: changed to lose hitstun after a period of time



    Thank you all for hearing me out, and I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on the matter.
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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362529}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level362529}}
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    #2
    things to consider:

    >resource cost
    >hitstun
    >how good it is
    >tracking range
    >whether or not you can get a catch/follow up from it

    Soul Sigil used to be a "free" button (due to luciels mp regen pre-nerf) and it did damage + was hard to avoid due to how fast it was + gave a move/jump debuff but nerfed to it eventually ended up making it terrible and not worth a slot. This went from an unfair button to a fair button, but it made it a skill not worth using.

    Spectral Spear pre-renewal used to launch opponents up instead of doing hitstun it does now and wasn't worth having it on skill slots. However, they changed it to doing hitstun thus making the ability to catch from it go up and made it a skill worth slotting. This is an unfair button because of how much easier they made getting a catch/follow up on it.
    ‚Äč

    Flying Kite used to be unfair because it tracked to opponents and did heavy hitstun making it easy to catch afterwards, but changes to the skill made it have extremely heavy recovery frames + kd the opponents so the opponents have to be high enough before Kite is used if you wanted to catch/follow up on it. Despite this conditional catch/followup, people still consider Kite an unfair skill despite it being the most expensive button in AA's kit. This makes me think that either resource cost is a non-factor or ara's orb system is just that dumb.

    Particle Ray is not that bad without core up imo. Catching after being shot in the sky is ultimately luck since the laser's could launch opponents in different directions in the air and makes following up with photon blink inconsistent. However, core negating the big launch and giving a catch with no additional work just like that is unfair because there is no skill involved. Because of this difference, I feel as though the ability/skill level needed to follow up on homing skills is incredibly important in deciding whether or not a homing skill is considered fair or unfair.

    Changing Wind Blast from a multi-hit to a single-hit made it much harder to catch off of thus making it a less of an unfair skill, however because it still tracks + does enough hitstun to catch off of its still considered unfair.

    tl;dr if it can give you a catch and/or does massive damage it's unfair. A "fair" homing skill would be a skill that doesnt do hitstun or be impossible to catch off of. Even conditional/relatively difficult followups like Kite or Scare Chase is considered unfair. Everything else matters, just to a lesser extent.
    Last edited by Treasure-solace-; 09-27-2018, 05:07 PM.
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    • SeraphZX-gaia-
      SeraphZX-gaia- commented
      Editing a comment
      I think a part of what makes people think that Kite is unfair is that it's a high damage, unMB-able homing skill which can also be used in mid-air (thus making it easier to use). Also, I've started using a Vishnu as well, and gaining orbs with her is far FAR easier than the other Aras 'cause most of her PvP skills rely on mana and give orbs, which makes orbs almost exclusively for pulling off the Vishnu's bravery skill of choice.

    • WeissritterX-solace-
      Editing a comment
      If for nothing but Dread Chase, mana feed needs to be considered as well. Possibly even awk feed.
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362589}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level362589}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362589}}

    #3
    I'm surprised you left Dread Chase off the never complained about list. Calling it "Optimus-in-a-Can" would not be an over-exaggeration. Both it and Scare Chase were nerfed years ago to not circle around players that enter i-frames and now instead cruise off the screen. Since then, KoG has embraced i-frame-harassing homing projectiles similar to Rena's Homing Arrow behavior. Yet they have seemingly never even considered undoing that change to these two skills.

    (Brace yourself)
    SPOILERSo they were never changed back. This is a little odd, actually. Even Shooting Star and Cannon Prison persist against invincible targets. Not to mention that KoG has elegantly applied the passive mana burn to a large amount of skills which would otherwise feed exactly as much as Dread Chase does. It's hard to imagine that KoG has been accidentally glossing over that solution for more than a year now. It's common knowledge that admins can passively see player MP; it's not like they -whoops!- forgot to put on their Mana Goggles. Something is clearly going on here. This thing has so many issues I could write for an hour. Anyone that knows anything about the outcomes of Dread Chase in PvP will tell you to throw away your TT/Cent degree if you even remotely seriously consider putting it in your PvP skill bar.

    It's these glaringly obvious flaws on a skill that clearly has no right to be as bad as it is which makes it a great candidate for investigating the problems with our homing skills. (And yes, I'll be bringing up auto hit skills)

    First off, I think it's important to quantify the utility of the skills and their outcomes. For example, a 'perfect homing projectile' would be an instant speed projectile with perfect homing. Indistinguishable from a move such as Aiming Shot. The area that any projectile can potentially chase you and hit you is that skill's effective AoE. Thus, an instant speed projectile with perfect homing (or an auto-hit) would be functionally indistinguishable from an actual AoE skill like CC's Pandemonium. At least when only one target is involved..

    The one trade-off between an auto hit projectile and a normal-speed projectile is that with the delay in hit, you (usually) gain the opportunity to confirm a catch off of it. However, there are many instant speed auto catches like Fire Wall and Charge Bolt. Both of which have the perks of not only being an autohit with a large AoE, but also allowing guaranteed catches off of them. Those giant instant AoEs some classes have that always allow them to continue comboing after it catches you? Yes. Those are literally better than any projectile with a comparable range. *Speaking of which, almost every homing projectile in the game now has a mechanic that greatly nerfed both their overall lock-on range and backwards lock-on range in PvE, but also greatly decreases those further in PvP. The point is - most projectiles don't have the effective AoE that they used to. (Though CBS homing needles is one of the exceptions)

    Despite this, homing skills take a lot of heat from people. Seemingly disproportionately when compared to any other large auto-catch skill. Yes, we can probably agree that some need to be buffed, and others need to be nerfed. But what do you do if it's on a class that's already pretty balanced? Skills should always be worth their slots, or as close to it as possible. Heaven forbid no skill should be the equivalent of handing your opponent upwards of over 200 MP in exchange for 20% of their health like some kind of old CBS Code : Recovery on steroids that *I* pay the shipping for out of *my* pocket with *my* 200 MP!!

    I digress. If a homing skill is too powerful and it's overcentralizing an otherwise statistically 'balanced' character, then the skills need to be nerfed and some other aspect of the class needs to be buffed to compensate. However, I'd be willing to bet that it isn't so much a DPS issue as it is a catching issue. If a skill is overcentralizing due to their DPS, then the easiest solution is to nerf that skill and buff across all of the other skills (or at least a few of the more commonly used skills). This is probably not the case considering KoG would have redistributed the damage long ago (I would hope)

    A skill that overcentralizes because of it's catching ability is really just a band-aid fix to a character that cannot otherwise catch well enough to justify their lower average damage output over time. And you can't resolve that by compensating with enormous damage boosts across the entire class. And I think KoG has been really trying to figure out how to fix catching troubles without making everybody angry because overcentralized fights don't feel fun.

    The same is apparent when looking at Kinetic Bombardment and understanding that almost everything that passive brings to the table is meant to remedy TT's flaws. He got more MP gain. He got a siege mode that doesn't whiff against hugely telegraphed approaches due to lag. He got a way to stop siege from pushing close enemies out of combo range all the time. He got more protection against people jumping over and behind siege all the time. And he got a way to keep pressure off from classes with fast and far-reaching magic command projectiles. These all would have been great if spread out across the class. Say, the shield comes up whenever you enter siege, and the black hole only functions to cancel out the siege push and hold enemies in place. It could spawn as long as the cannonball hits clientside if need be. Etc.

    Everything could have been spread out, but instead all of these got mashed up into one move. As a result, Cent finds himself spamming this mode (it still eclipses every other mode in most situations), and his opponents find themselves faced with repetitive gameplay. They don't have fun, they don't get a chance to face a different approach, and they spend most of the fight being helpless. Obviously increasing damage in response may not work out. There's always other avenues like increasing the hitbox on something less used, or changing skills and passives mechanically. There's the possibility that maybe classes aren't generating enough MP. Or maybe cooldowns need to be raised to accommodate the fact that this game was built on the concept of 4-8 skills and now we can have 10-11 plus free cooldowns. Maybe skills being so available makes it harder for classes with MP troubles to stock up on it when facing classes that catch more often and force mana breaks every time. Maybe a man gets tired listening to "Install - Charge Impulser!" every five seconds, hm? Maybe It's late and I'm going to bed.


    TL;DR: I don't think KoG really knows what to do about this, and I think it's important to look at the deeper causes because it seems like more of a skill-overcentralization issue that isn't being addressed.
    Last edited by WeissritterX-solace-; 09-27-2018, 09:17 PM.

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    • Hitotsuoboe-solace-
      Editing a comment
      Well, when I was making my skill lists, I tried to focus on homing skills that I also remembered being used in PvP to at least some level of frequency.

      Dread Chase... I actually can't remember it being used against me in PvP. Ever. Though, I am really tempted to compare Dread Chase almost never being used to Shooting Star being very commonly used (until Mod Burning Punisher showed up).
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362638}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level362638}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362638}}

    #4
    oversimplified but saem as with any regular skill--look at how difficult it is to land and how much comes out of landing it relative to how much it costs.

    it can b a little confusing because homing skills often have janky layers of effective ranges, and unlike with static big circle skills, these will often vary quite a bit from map to map. for example, particle ray can hit a pretty large area in the direction sariel is facing. followups are nearly guaranteed on targets that are on the ground, slightly janky on targets jumping under platforms, and pretty much yolo everywhere else. in some maps, its ideal effective range might be the same as its yolo range. in others, it might be no better than base particle ray's while having a considerable yolo whiff range in which it lands but fails to do anything other than feed mp. this makes it a bit difficult to figure out an expected return from landing a homing skill without actually grinding matches until you get a rough feel for each skill in different situations.

    some of them are easy to land effectively in any situation but don't have a very high expected return due to the class they're from lacking damage passives or the skill itself feeding nearly enough for a break. some of them are difficult to land effectively but do infinite damage + steal your credit card information and make you wonder why the devs didn't just make it a normal big circle instead of crappy homing. some of them are both easy to land and steal your credit card information. some of them are neither. some are difficult to follow up on but do plenty of damage themselves. some are easy to follow up on but do nothing but feed by themselves. the list goes on and on. you can probably tell which of these people don't complain about, complain about sometimes, and complain about frequently.

    there are skills that reward players way too much given how easy they are to use, and while this isn't limited to homing skills, homing related issues are probably more difficult to pinpoint as there's more complexity to deal with. even if a skill is deemed fair by winrates as a result of changes to numbers, the overall experience of using and playing against these skills remains the same, and it's often just straightup unpleasant. needles cutting may knock you down instantly due to pvp accessories, but it's still pretty triggering to get hit by. even if you win against it in the end, it'll be a grindy, drawn out match in which you'll spend a good chunk of the time being fairly helpless. the change to magic missile was far more palatable, and i hope to see similar changes to existing homing skills.

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    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362667}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level362667}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362667}}

      #5
      " It's only fair if I use it."




      jk tho
      I judged the skills based on several factors, such as :-
      • How bad the class need it
      • The damage it deals
      • How spammable it is
      • Other factors

      Comment

      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362745}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level362745}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362745}}

        #6
        At the risk of being accused of oversimplifying, my personal breakdown of a homing skill's unfairness falls into two main parts.
        For my purposes our hitscan style skills like Fire Wall, DC:RF, and Grav Shelling do count.

        1) Travel Speed: Does the skill have the potential to miss, or can it be avoided with smart positioning?

        SPOILER
        I'll use Fox Fire as a "midline" example for this one, insofar as I believe the base version is fair-ish. The fireballs take somewhat wide turns to reach the target, and are initially sent out straight ahead of Ara. Even at close range, if the target is either behind or directly above/below her, they can run away and the fireballs will mostly miss. (the mod's guaranteed freeze is admittedly probably too good for PvP, and solidly puts it in category 2)

        The first homing skills, Magic Missile and Guide Arrow, are moreso in the "fair" camp due to (relatively) slow travel times. Even in S1 it was possible to dance around MM, and dodging Guide Arrow was really, really difficult (though an Aisha could teleport side-to-side and force the arrow into a spiral), but possible.

        In contrast, many homing skills travel so quickly that it's harder to miss with them than hit: Blitz, Needles, and every last hitscan skill.


        2) Stopping Power: Is the skill disproportionately rewarding for the caster? Is the skill delay too long, and does it keep the opponent pinned while the user sets something else up? Does it have a Ruthless and/or Evil trait attached, or does it continue tracking a target even after they've mana broken?
        Basically, "Regardless of how exactly it happens, how much does pushing this button limit your opponent's ability to play?"

        SPOILER
        This is my biggest issue about DC/FP's kit, as well as Grav shots, Fire Wall, DC:Reverse Field, Needles Cutting, and Eve's Core: These keep the target pinned for an excessive amount of time relative to the cost.

        Scare Chase is considered tolerable because even if\\when it does hit, the Chung has to be smart about where he is relative to his target if he wants to get a combo off of it. Crack Crusher, on the other hand, needed a nerf because of the truly excessive time advantage, as well as pushing back instead of KD-launching, which made follow-ups much easier, even though they're both basically "launch one homing missile" skills.

        To contrast that, Spectral Spear and Particle Ray aren't complained about as often because the pushback often makes it very hard for the caster to follow-up on her target. Likewise, the removal of manabreak tracking was an especially good way to take GA/DB's kit down a notch. (especially since no skill should have MB-tracking to begin with coughNeedlescough)

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        • Spaise-solace-
          Spaise-solace- commented
          Editing a comment
          The only part I'd argue against at all in your post would be in regards to Eve's Core Laser, as client side discrepancies make it more of a wild card at times. But otherwise, I agree with everything you've posted in regards to homing skills and their fairness.
      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362786}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level362786}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362786}}

        #7
        i only play herrscher now so ill give my 2 cents about his homing skills, then try to compare them to other homing skills that i think personally are unfair.

        PVP wise they arent very good.

        Each of the orbs on Abgrund have their own small radius of tracking so either half or 1/3 of the skill will hit unless you are 100% next to the opponent, at the point not making it much of a homing skill when youre right next to them. plus its all one hit due to the hits being very close together due to how fast the skill is, not the most impossible to catch with but thats if they are already near you.

        Reflexion is used more for the ruthless trait-floating around the player version apart from the homing version. if the homing version is used 1) it takes alot of time to set up before it can be fired. 2) once the opponent realizes that they are gonna use the homing part of reflexion, they are too far to be followed up with a combo because if they are smart, they use the set up time to run or use a skill when the homing part is released.

        Things that make homing skills fair is how far they travel and how much hitstun/how many hits they provide. if it can be used at a distance, the hitstun should be short to make it so they cannot follow up with a combo. at a close distance, a regular hitstun should suffice since at close distance, any skill can be used to catch.

        Regarding MP cost
        I dont think MP cost should be considered on how much the homing skill.....homes or deals hits. Even back in the day for skills like Shooting star and Conqueror, they were abused due to the fact they could hit most of the time and the HUGE amount the dmg they did even though they cost a lot of mana. so tbh all homing skills in PvP need a short short range. Also take into account ERP can lower MP cost and people just combo to gain MP anyway so whose stopping people from saving up MP into a homing skill.

        For Example, Bullet blitz and any needles cutting should really be cut down to one hitstun due to how far they travel and also their low MP cost. and its difficult to stop from the long skill delay. and also them being spammable, BB from FP's passive and Code Sariel high MP gain.

        what im trying to say because this is a mess and i didnt lay my thoughts out.

        No matter the MP cost, all homing skills should deal 1-2 hitstun hits and low homing range in pvp because no matter what they can be abused.


        Comment

        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362824}}
          Level: {{esusrinfo_level362824}}
          Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362824}}

          #8
          i find that sariel is actually balanced in a way but could use a slight change to NC. sariel only has 1 100 mp skill, photon flash active, and the rest are 200/300mp skills. she has NO combo potential at all so mp gain asside from convert is hard to come by without drastically feeding the opponent. kugal was actually ok at best as the hitstun helped but they changed that and failed to buff a different aspect so it isnt realy worth it anymore. needles cutting and flash is sariels only pvp skills (EH is mandatory so ignore it) that are worth anything besides the MEB.

          they gave sariel a buff when ECS or EH is activated that helps combos only on a class that you cant really combo efficiently with.

          you can complain about cutting and sariel but you have to understand that she has trash skills regarding pvp and KOG never understands this, all they see is +11/12 players wrecking poop with max gear then focus on a completely useless part of her.

          member when photon flare actually was a little worth using then they nerfed it with light resist

          Comment


          • SeraphZX-gaia-
            SeraphZX-gaia- commented
            Editing a comment
            Kugel is still a good catching skill. It's one of the things that people hate the most 'cause of how accessible it can be. Just don't count on it too much for hit trades 'cause LOL SUPER ARMOR ARENA DOMINANCE!!!!
        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class362992}}
          Level: {{esusrinfo_level362992}}
          Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild362992}}

          #9
          For ever fox fire used is another Ara i drop kick into a volcano.

          overloaded skill is overloaded

          One of the problems homing attacks is that they linger around too long Guide Arrow will circle around you even if you use a skill IF to dodge it sometimes
          Last edited by LeyRose-solace-; 09-29-2018, 07:10 AM.

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          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class364805}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level364805}}
            Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild364805}}

            #10
            I'd like to throw in a couple of comments, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but this is from what I've observed and experienced.

            If Guided Arrow doesn't have a target to lock onto at the beginning of the cast it won't home at all. The target also can't be invulnerable at the time of cast, so in a way it can be forced to be whiffed by using something like Backflip Shot and Photon Flash. I'm also quite certain it doesn't have active homing as you're seeming to imply, meaning that If it doesn't detect you at the beginning of the cast it won't turn back to hit you. When this happens (i.e. nothing to lock onto), each of the 5 arrows will travel out in a straight line in an arc and will no longer home and/or curve, but if there's something in the way, it'll hit.

            OG Wind Blast itself isn't very good anymore compared to before from what I've experienced. It has very short hitstun, does almost no damage and doesn't curve. Plenty of people have simply just jumped out of it after getting hit.

            Mod Wind Blast has active homing, meaning that after it's cast, each of the 5 projectiles constantly checks to see if there is something nearby to hit. At any point in its trajectory if it locks on, it'll turn back if you exit iframes and continue to linger after you go invulnerable. The only downside of it compared to OG is that unless at least 2 of the projectiles hit it does less damage than OG, but this condition isn't too hard to satisfy. I often see it being used as a point blank nuke because it also doesn't curve unless the target is close enough to where the curve is for Wind Blast to lock on. I'd say that what you've said about Guided Arrow is more accurate for Mod Wind Blast instead.
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            • Hitotsuoboe-solace-
              Editing a comment
              To be perfectly honest, what I described with Guide Arrow did happen to me quite a while ago in Arena, and it only happened twice, as far as I can recall. However, I know for a fact that Guide Arrow has pulled full 180s to come back and hit me. If I remember right, what happened was Guide Arrow was fired at me while I was in the initial homing radius, but I flew out of that radius. At this point, the arrows stop homing in on me and fly off in straight lines, letting me get through the gaps.

              However, if I try to attack the Rena who fired Guide Arrow afterwards, because the arrows initially detected me and the arrows have such a long lifespan, I'm back in the homing radius, and they'll turn around to try and kill me again.

              I've somehow managed to have the same thing happen with Doom Bringer's Pulse Cannon, too, probably through use of Photon Flash after the move started. (I've only encountered this once, though)

              I'll admit that my memory is hazy regarding what happens if I'm in I-frames at the time Guide Arrow, though - I probably ought to see if I can test this again.

            • Stratagem-solace-
              Stratagem-solace- commented
              Editing a comment
              guide arrow is weird in how it homes / tracks. there's the initial cast where it checks for a target, if there isn't it goes into oblivion, if there is it'll latch on and follow. if they are in i-frames when the initial cast happens then it will never latch on no matter what you do.

              now assuming that they weren't in i-frames during the initial cast, guide arrow then has a sort of pseudo continuous homing check. The detection radius for guide arrow is not attached to the projectiles themselves like it is for something like bullet blitz. Instead the detection circle is centered on DB. what this means is the following, providing the target was not in i-frames upon initial cast, you can throw Guide Arrow out, approach them, and once they're in the detection circle the arrows will turn around and go after them.


              as for wind blast, it's still useful. instead of being a homing catch now it's basically a delay catch with delayed hitstun. typically you'll use it backwards while close to them so you can delay catch them and thanks to the homing it'll wrap around and hit at the same time you hit them which helps you to ground them and secure your combo since DB has really weak hitstun. when compared to a lot of other homing attacks it is very lack luster, but that doesn't mean it's not useful.

            • Spaise-solace-
              Spaise-solace- commented
              Editing a comment
              I think the thing where guide arrow might latch onto targets cast at in i-frames might be client issues popping up. I definitely still see the skill return on players or myself even if it was cast while still in an invulnerable state, like Illusion thorns or something. Very rarely do I actually see it get cast and not lock on to anything and just shoot off straight as described.

              The Particle shot thing was also pretty common, it was even posted on the elwiki at some point.
          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class365391}}
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            Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild365391}}

            #11
            IMO, apart from a lot of other stuffs, i think there would be 3 common traits of a homing skill that can be put into consideration: active tracking (keep tracking enemies as long as the projectiles last), tracking range/duration, and hitstun. And for a homing attack to be "fair", it should only consist of 2 out of those 3. If it has active tracking and long range/duration, then it should have low to no hitstun; active tracking + more hitstun, then short range/duration; long range/duration and high hitstun, then no active tracking. That's what i think.

            But now when we consider other stuffs (damage, effects, amount of projectiles, cost, skill delay,...), the above rule may need to change a bit. Like, a skill with all the above 3 traits should neither have a lot of projectiles nor high damage; a skill with high damage or high amount of projectile should not have one or two of the above traits; high damage and many traits should come along with high cost or long cooldown; etc... For example, [Mod] Magdonic Cannon's tracking souls do a f**k ton of hits in addition to MP burn, and (i think) they have active tracking, but the damage per hit is a bit low imo, and have zero hitstun; Shooting Stars have pretty high damage, hitstun, and long range, but it's a bravery skill (which has high cost and long cooldown) and it has no active tracking (i think), therefore can be avoided by some means.

            So a homing attack might not be considered "fair" if it has too many of the mentioned traits. Some examples were mentioned in the post (Fox Fire and [Mod] Burning Punisher). For Fox Fire, although the range/duration is not very long (i think) (and idk if it has active tracking or not), but it has pretty high damage, has hitstun (i think), and most important is its Condemnation & Freeze debuff when hit, which makes it not very "fair". [Mod] Burning Punisher has pretty high amount of damage, hit amount and a lot of hitstun, and it has long skill delay frames (am i right?).

            Well, they're just my thought, so it's normal if i'm wrong somewhere :v

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