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List of Obvious Problems (regarding gameplay) in PvP

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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class375810}}
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    #46
    With Centurion, Kinetic Bombardment + Commander's Mark + XX~ will interrupt manabreak at times, allowing an infinite. It seems that once it interrupts manabreak, it will continually do so from the initial occurrence. So basically once that happens, you're screwed and all of your manabreaks onwards will fail.

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    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class392644}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level392644}}
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      #47
      I've been away from this thread for far too long, and I have no good excuse for that. All I can really do is bring you this update now.

      I apologize for not being able to meet my previous promise, but I don't yet have another video relating to in-game position. I guess I had some uncertainty as to whether or not it was good enough of a showcase to be accurate. I'll do my best to look over what I've found and see if I'm confident enough to release it in a full video.

      Now then, on to what we're all here for:


      New Additions (video evidence available for all of these in the main post):
      -Vishnu/Apsara: ^XX command has a backwards hitbox on the second X as it hits the ground
      -Tempest Burster: Mod Photon Shower and X-1 Extruder both have skill delays longer than their skill animations
      -Laby's Inner Aurora has a skill delay longer than the skill animation. Labeled with a KR? tag, as a patch in KR did reduce the delay, but it's not yet certain if that completely fixed this problem
      -Laby's awakening skill can appear even if its cast was interrupted
      -Eternity Winner's Mod Kapow Punch has a skill delay that's slightly longer than the skill animation (perhaps a few frames long - minor, but it exists)

      Evidence added for the following:
      -Richter's Fragarach has a skill delay longer than the skill's animation


      Additionally, special thanks in this update goes to XlVA-solace- , who provided video evidence showcasing the following problems (evidence for these is also in the main post):

      New Additions
      -Lu's ZZZ command can hit targets behind her with any of the three claw swipes
      -Ciel's ZZZZ command can hit targets behind him on the final Z if they're dashing toward him
      -Rose's ZZZZ command can hit targets behind her with the first, second, and final kicks
      -Rose's ^Z command can hit airborne targets behind her
      -Rose's >>Z command can hit targets behind her (relevant if Rose uses this into a wall)
      -Laby's ZZZZ command can hit targets behind her with the second, third, and final punch explosions
      -Laby's ZZXX command can hit targets behind her with the second punch explosion, as well as both attacks utilizing Nisha

      New Evidence
      -Rose: backwards hitboxes on grounded X commands. The description for this has been edited in the main post, as it's not certain if this applies to autoguns (but it does for every other weapon).
      -Ain: backwards hitboxes on grounded Z commands (sword swipes)



      There's probably a lot more to be noted regarding Laby that isn't here yet, and I need to see what I can do about exploring the game's positioning system, since I get the feeling it could be part of the reason why a number of these backwards hitboxes are possible to begin with.

      Stay tuned, I suppose.
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      • XlVA-solace-
        XlVA-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        Since I'm being mentioned here, I should also give credit to G123u-solace-, since she was the one piloting the characters in our testing videos to check for backboxes.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class393184}}
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      #48
      And about Ain, I don't know why EE and AP command ( ->>zzx) it knocks out, it's like,a useless combo .n.

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      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class393253}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level393253}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild393253}}

        #49
        Originally posted by XxPlaz2xX-solace- View Post
        With Centurion, Kinetic Bombardment + Commander's Mark + XX~ will interrupt manabreak at times, allowing an infinite. It seems that once it interrupts manabreak, it will continually do so from the initial occurrence. So basically once that happens, you're screwed and all of your manabreaks onwards will fail.
        Is this specifically with his XX~X siege? Is it the cannon blast from the 2nd X that causes this?

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        • XxPlaz2xX-solace-
          XxPlaz2xX-solace- commented
          Editing a comment
          The problem is the massive amount of hits you are taking. Cannons, Kinetic Bombardment hits, Commander's Mark hits. Since you're taking so many hits and are under hitstun so frequently, it will interrupt your manabreak and you will be in the KD animation, but will still be inside the Kinetic Bombardment and other attacks. Either it's KB's suction effects that messes with MB or it's getting hit while in a vulnerable part of the MB animation, thus interrupting MB and negating its effect even though you are in the KD animation.
      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class393268}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level393268}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild393268}}

        #50
        KE's Power Smash double casting upon interruption is not mentioned here.

        Please also mention combo escapes as part of obvious PvP problems. I am mostly looking at Auto Guard, Evacuation, and Andromeda.

        Chung's instant cannonball release command giving way too much mana.

        Another problem with PvP is manabreaking. Whoever gets first catch leaves with at least 100 mana while the opponent is forced to manabreak the majority/all of the mana gained from receiving attacks. While awakening bars do fill up more quickly when the player receives attacks, Ring of Fury exists, which leaves the winning player not too far away from one-bead awakening either. This leaves the losing player with very little options to recover and counteract in case the winning player tries to recatch. There currently are a lot of low-costing skills that have devastating effect in matches whether it Needles Cutting, Quicksilver Accel, Wind Blast, Bullet Blitz, etc. Some may disagree with skills that I specifically mentioned, but I'm only speaking from my experience.
        Last edited by ImmortalSage-solace-; 02-22-2019, 05:00 PM.

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        • Hitotsuoboe-solace-
          Editing a comment
          It has been a while since I've last made an update to this thread, so I'll reinforce the purpose of it:

          The point is to list things in gameplay that would be seen as glitchy or "obvious"ly not functioning like any normal person would expect them to. In your list, only Power Smash's storage would qualify as something I could reasonably put on this list. Everything else (no matter my feelings on them) falls into an area of opinion, and those kinds of things should be in their own thread(s).
      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class401897}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level401897}}
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        #51
        It's time to get back to it.

        New Additions (all of which have video evidence in the main list):
        -Rune Master's Triple Saber has a lingering hitbox (hitbox is based on rune graphic being on-screen after the explosion, not the instant the explosion occurs)
        -Metamorphy's Mod Impact Hammer has a longer delay than the skill animation
        -Nova Imperator's Mod Breaking Fist has a backwards hitbox
        -Code Ultimate's ZX command has a backwards hitbox
        -Comet Crusader's Mod Guardian's Rage can appear even if its cast was interrupted
        -Flame Lord's Mod Explosive Fist can appear even if its cast was interrupted
        -Devi's Mod Energy Wave may have a backwards hitbox (needs further testing to be certain)
        -Richter's Still Lenze has a backwards hitbox
        -Radiant Soul's Mod Flashy has a backwards hitbox

        Video evidence has been provided for:
        -Rune Master's ZZZ command generates flames that cause backwards hitboxes
        -Rune Master's Triple Saber can appear even if its cast was interrupted
        -Aether Sage's >>XZ rocks can be stored if the command is used off a ledge. This issue will be moved from high to top priority due to how this can be abused to hit the opponent while being attacked
        -Anemos' Maximum Pain can appear even if its cast was interrupted
        -Raven's Maximum Cannon can appear even if its cast was interrupted
        -Nova Imperator's Ignition Crows have longer delays than their skill animations
        -Devi's Absorption Nova can appear even if its cast was interrupted
        -Devi's Vortex Energy, on its second delay, has a longer delay than the skill animation
        -Devi's Energy Wave has a longer delay than the skill animation
        -Laby's Inner Aurora, even though its delay has been reduced, is still a delay catch (KR label removed, new evidence provided)



        For those wondering about the video on how position works, I ran into a bit of an unexpected delay. Simply put: I've been on a new laptop for a few weeks now. My old laptop had a part of it physically explode while I was trying to diagnose its keyboard (I was getting a lot of dropped inputs), and I couldn't get it to power back on. The video clips I had planned to use in that video are now stuck on a hard drive I may or may not be able to recover data from. Likely, I'll have to fetch new videos and examples if I'm ever going to make that video... assuming it would even be valid for me to post it on the forums anyways, given the showcase's nature of being embedded in glitches.
        Last edited by Hitotsuoboe-solace-; 04-09-2019, 08:41 PM. Reason: Updating with more instances for Rune Master/Devi problems
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        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class401982}}
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          #52
          Tht moment when ur both forms of proof on skill delay.........

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          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class402708}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level402708}}
            Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild402708}}

            #53
            Something that KoG can't seem to actually commit to, seeing as they've patched and un-patched it before:

            Awakened Guided Arrow once again has manabreak tracking: I can MB, wait the full time on the ground, get up, use a skill, and still get hit by it once my i-frames end. This video is from two years ago, but I can say with reasonable certainty that Guided Arrow is behaving this way again. If video proof for the current patch is required, I'll see what I can do about recruiting a DB for it.

            This has been patched out twice before, so even though mb-tracking is still a part of some skills it seems strange that they keep waffling on Daybreaker.
            Last edited by XlVA-solace-; 04-13-2019, 10:08 AM.

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            • Hitotsuoboe-solace-
              Editing a comment
              This has happened recently enough to me that I can confirm this is around... don't have footage of it on my person, sadly.

              It really is unusual for them to waver like that, especially if they're explicitly trying to change it. My personal wish would be to reduce the lifespan of the arrows in PvP (so they'd expire before you get up from a mana break, and wouldn't risk looping back around if they initially failed to lock on), but I digress.
          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class407265}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level407265}}
            Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild407265}}

            #54
            Let's keep it going - with these official tournaments inbound, I'd like to clarify as much as I can.

            New additions (with evidence provided in main list):
            -Haunting Spirit can appear even if its cast was interrupted
            -Immortal's Infinite: Flurry can appear even if its cast was interrupted
            -Aether Sage's Ring of Fire can appear even if its cast was interrupted
            -Comet Crusader's Leap can store a counter state
            -Fatal Phantom's Mod Trick Shot can have the hitbox on its initial roll appear even if the cast was interrupted
            -Centurion's Mod Impact Detonation can appear even if its cast was interrupted
            -Bloody Queen's >>^XZ, on its ground impact, has a lingering hitbox
            -Bloody Queen's Blood Sting has a lingering hitbox

            Evidence added for the following:
            -Centurion's Cannon Strike has a backwards hitbox


            Also, I finally managed to produce another video relating to the game's sense of position - vertical positioning, in this case. Sadly, it's not nearly as much of a revelation as I would've liked it to be, but it still sheds light on some confusing things that pop up in matches from time to time.

            As I've said before, this video does heavily involve what many would see as glitchy game behavior. I want this video here for explanation, but any mods can feel free to remove the link to it if they deem its contents too dangerous.





            At this point, it does feel like my progress is slowing somewhat, so I'm wondering if I should focus on directly testing characters. It is very powerful if I'm thorough (since I can reveal backwards hitboxes and delay catches in Free Training, as well as storage or skills that can appear when interrupted via Hennon's freeze wave glitch), but requires a lot of effort on my part (since I have to get a character I may not necessarily have to 3rd job). Can't promise much with the varying scale of this task, but I'll see what I can do.
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            • Class: {{esusrinfo_class407335}}
              Level: {{esusrinfo_level407335}}
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              #55
              Thanks for the video on vertical positioning.

              I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned sooner, but Laby's >>^X airdashes have the same excessive persistence issue that Chung's, Lu's, and Ain's do, without the benefit of an additional visual. As is standard for those attacks, these persistence and launch properties give Laby enough time to travel offscreen and back before catching her target.

              With how many characters have it, I guess it's taken for granted that new characters' aerial movement also counts as an excessively long-lasting attack.

              That and it does feel like Laby's everything seems to have the excessive persistence property.

              Comment


              • Hitotsuoboe-solace-
                Editing a comment
                It has certainly felt like those air dashes acted like that... as does the feeling that Laby can face the wrong way and be off-rhythm with her entire wall combo and still connect with the entire thing.

                That kind of air dash... if it were my decision, it wouldn't have a hitbox at all. It's for getting into position, and shouldn't make it far more difficult to contest her in the air than it already is, especially since we have the dive mixups on top of that.

                Eternity Winner, as much as I hate her in virtually every regard, may have to be among the first characters I make in order to break her moveset, just because of how absurd those hitboxes are.
            • Class: {{esusrinfo_class411307}}
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              #56
              It's that time once again, albeit with not everything I wished to bring. Let's get this out of the way first:

              New additions (proof available in main post):
              -Knight Emperor's Mortal Blow has a backwards hitbox
              -Metamorphy's Mod Heavy Press has a hitbox that extends lower than the skill's graphics. This may require the Gigantic trait.
              -Rage Heart's Maximum Dive can appear even if its cast was interrupted
              -Code Ultimate's >>ZZX has a backwards hitbox
              -Comet Crusader's Mod Land Smash can appear even if its cast was interrupted
              -Vishnu: Part 1 of Flame Lotus Strike has a hitbox that extends higher than the skill's graphics
              -Vishnu: Part 1 of Flame Lotus Strike can appear even if its cast was interrupted. If this happens, part 2 of Flame Lotus Strike becomes accessible despite the interruption.

              New evidence:
              -Comet Crusader's Leap stores a counter state. The new evidence is that I actually managed to get countered by that.



              Sadly, this batch doesn't involve any in-depth character studies as I wished to do, but my attention was divided. I had two other projects in mind at the time (one of which was a boss guide that is already completed; one of which is based around studying mana breaking in-depth, but still lacks components necessary for its completion since I haven't run into them in Arena). I hope to get this second project completed soon (if my guildmates are willing to aid me with it) so I can move forward with character-specific explorations as I promised.

              I just wonder how much the revamps in KR will change this list and its topics... for better or for worse.
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              • Class: {{esusrinfo_class413721}}
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                #57
                I dont really hav video proof but some ppl tht ive fought can vouch for a bug on TB tht makes the >>x command on cannons activate a multi hitstun if used within someones awakening when right in front of them. the chances are insanely low tht a person could pull it off but its practically an automatic win if this happens since the opponent cant MB it.

                Also, under the right conditions, FM-92 MK2 Lancer SW (or the mod) can also hav a skill delay thts longer then its animation, though the margin of advantage is only about .5 secs long thus only making it useful when right next to the opponent. The move also has a backwards hitbox for some reason.

                Wish i had some video evidence but my P.C sucks.

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                • XlVA-solace-
                  XlVA-solace- commented
                  Editing a comment
                  I'm one of those that can vouch. The multi-hitstun is pretty similar to how other attacks with the "continuous hits" property (Megadrill Break, etc) can keep inflicting hits while frozen. What's weird to me is that Rose's guns are supposed to only hit once for each part (draw+shoot), so why would they even have continuous hits in the first place?
              • Class: {{esusrinfo_class414673}}
                Level: {{esusrinfo_level414673}}
                Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild414673}}

                #58
                Time for a minor update here.

                Evidence has been provided for the following:
                -Code Ultimate's Queen's Throne, mod or non-mod, may have not have its transformation effects appear for the opponent in the presence of latency
                -Code Sariel's Needle Cutting can appear even if its cast was interrupted

                I've also added the issues with Rose/Tempest Burster somedayillbe provided, though evidence still needs to be found for them. (Still trying to think of a good way to showcase continuously generated hits during pauses in PvE... the best I have right now is attacking one of Hennon's summons as you get frozen by his ice wave. You can't try that with Hennon himself since the ice wave doesn't hit near him, and Ran's delays don't work because hitting Ran gets you out of the pause.)


                Also, I finally managed to get around to that video on mana breaking I mentioned. It's available below for anyone interested.

                https://youtu.be/WT3pyT_W-y0

                Making this video, I really began to question some of the design choices around the mana break system. It's not very pleasant knowing that any move that staggers on hit denies any mana break that isn't pre-charged, and how if you take multiple hits in a single frame, every single hit will boost your mana break charge before the game decides whether or not to trigger the mana break, often causing overcharged breaks of 50-70 MP or more. I don't like the idea of having to completely read your opponent's nuke (complete with homing, in some cases) just to have any chance of mana breaking it, nor being heavily punished for mana breaking a move purely because of how it happens to hit you all at once.

                In any case, I now need to think on what to do with regards to these incoming "reboots"... assuming there's even significant enough changes to warrant changing my methods. Sure, there's the new special actives that ought to be looked into (and I already know some of those are flawed - in KR, Knight Emperor's new special active, Shoulder Tackle, has a longer skill delay than its animation), but outside that, I'm not sure if any issues with skill delays, backwards hitboxes, or etc. actually got fixed.

                Guess I'll find out soon enough.
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                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415311}}
                  Level: {{esusrinfo_level415311}}
                  Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild415311}}

                  #59
                  i appreciate wat you're doing but i don't think any1 at kog puts half the effort u do in2 fixing the game

                  as for what went wrong with reboot cu from what i've seen so far:
                  third job spear normals following cu everywhere was fixed, but both zx and zxx are still unreliable and fairly ez 2 mash out of due to their hitboxes' tendency 2 desync from eve's animations

                  x and xx have been sped up, but commands that follow such as xxzz are now unusable because the electronballs come out too early aka their hitstun ends before the followup hits can connect. also unrelated but electronbals r terrible and should'v been reworkd...

                  commands were sped up to be more in line with the everyone else's, but in regards to input timings it feels like they were sped up in the same way aspd speeds things up aka even though her zzzz isn't faster than elboy's or raven's, she needs to mash z harder. aka she hits the same effective speed cap past which her normals start autocanceling, just at a lower socketed aspd. not rly a huge thing if you aren't stacking speeds, but definitely noticeable if u do

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