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Crimson Cradle Raids: The Seemingly "Necessary" Support Classes

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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class413816}}
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    #16
    What would have to change in order for you to be willing to attempt Normal Crimson Cradle without super armor? Without a healing class? Frankly speaking I think both 12-5 and 12-6 are reasonably easy without any support characters as long as you know where are you running and what are you doing. Yes, I'm well aware of that the lasers can sometimes kill you but It's avoidable if you keep an eye out for the attacks. As for Crimson Cradle alone...except for exploding cones, sudden spike deaths, flames in last phase I think It's bearable even without needing Cent. There are other ways to survive, using stone apples and i-framing. I'm more of a CC/BL fan for raids but I'm willing to run without those too, they all just provide comfort but It's not a necessity.

    Have you ever attempted Crimson Cradle without a Centurion, while playing a class that can't get super armor on demand through a skill? If so, did you succeed or fail? If you lost, was the reason you lost related to not having Tactical Field's super armor? Yes and more than once even with Laby players that at first weren't sure or in fact haven't noticed that there isn't a Cent in the party until the last phase (the Laby players as well as other people died maybe once or twice but everyone managed to survive through). Before the raid nerfs, yes, Cent was playing a huge factor in raids, now? As long as you have DPS, not really.

    Overall: I think It's just that people rely too much on a specific class what isn't good. They could always nerf it and so on. The mindset of "I need cent otherwise no raid" is... well yeah not good. And maybe even overally in raids I know many players who don't get to raid because they're not a buff class, don't have friends and get ignored all the time even in the discord servers. Talking from a friend's experience btw.

    i'll just second what tsugumari said, make all difficulties of raid and maybe really remove tactical field

    and while we're at it a bit offtopic but still related to raids FOR THE LOVE OF GOD PLEASE REMOVE 3 HOUR CUTSCENES AND LET US EXCHANGE MARKS FOR CRYSTALS,

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    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class414115}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level414115}}
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      #17
      I like face tanking though =<

      OT: I played in both situation where there wasn't a healer and cent. At this point of stage, we just knew what we were doing even without those two. It wasn't difficult from my experience since we had other ways of supporting without T.field and Sunshower/Blatt.

      I think it also comes down to your experience with your teammates and who is capable of doing what.
      If you have a whale that can burst down 12-7 without the help from anyone, cent and RaS basically just give the whale QoL. But it's not needed.

      Most of my runs. We fail because we lack DPS at the end of the day. also my party members are pretty suicidal

      However, that still doesn't take away the fact that cent is still needed for people to stay away from dying. Bluhen and RaS is like w/e. Most are use for MP healing rather than HP healing.

      [for my party personally]
      TBH, Most of my run, there will be two cent just for all the damage boost. Stoic is like w/e to us at this point. We just run with a Mad paradox who seal of time 24/7

      honestly. the only suggestion i can give is give everyone a revive passive (60 sec CD pve) instead of removing S.A
      Last edited by 999ERP-solace-; 07-10-2019, 01:05 PM.

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      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class414293}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level414293}}
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        #18
        There's been a bit brought up a few times that I'd like to share my thoughts on.

        Quite a few people have brought up the concept of removing shared super armor from Centurion's Tactical Field. On that idea in isolation, I definitely agree - we shouldn't be given the ability to outright ignore the boss we're fighting and just spam skills nonstop without fear of an attack being potentially dangerous. Without shared super armor, people would have to adapt to the new situation at hand, which would help develop player skill.

        In fact, given the recent reboot changes in KR to some support moves, I think the removal of shared super armor from Tactical Field might actually happen.



        ...my concern right now, though, is how the majority of people who do Varnimyr Raids would react.

        From a lot of players who relied on Tactical Field as an outlet for safety, I would expect a lot of rage. If those people continued to do Varnimyr Raids, I wonder if they, out of concern of not being able to clear Crimson Cradle, would further emphasize having DPS, healing, or support classes in the group. This would, in turn, put a slightly new set of restrictions on party making.

        Of course, this could all be a temporary scenario so long as people would be able to learn the Raids and be able to routinely react properly - if they could do that, losing the super armor on Tactical Field would make Crimson Cradle raids more dangerous, but not seemingly impossible. But that - being able to consistently handle the Raid, most notably phase 2's Recluse, is what I worry about. There would still be the matters of the scythe combos' speed and hitboxes, the Recluse's unusually high attack power, and the Recluse being hidden by player attacks. That last bit is especially troubling due to there being 8 players in the Raid: not only are there visuals of all colors and size coming from multiple directions, but the voice clips the Recluse/Dark Recluse use can be overridden by the numerous sound effects from player skills either firing or connecting, making the voice clips impossible to use as a warning. Even turning off the in-game music doesn't help with this.

        I'm all for making an environment without making shared super armor that forces players to properly learn the fights... I just want to know if the fight's environment will be sufficient for that to be possible, and if not, how it would need to be adjusted for it to be acceptable.
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        • Tsugumari-solace-
          Tsugumari-solace- commented
          Editing a comment
          People always complain. Nothing your an do about it. Same goes for elitism.

          About the mentioned problems. Look at it from another angle. The reasons those currently won't change is because SA allows you to deal with it. Now, if we remove SA, those things get more attention and as such, solutions might be implemented. This is especially important as said problems are not limited to this raid. But rather all groups consisting of 8 people. To put it simply, human sized bosses are not ideal for larger groups and should rather appear in solo dungeons.
      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class414307}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level414307}}
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        #19
        Everyone have such great ideas and suggestions! Just gonna (re)state what I believe would make raid friendlier.

        If there are two things I would want change to make raid more friendlier for newbies it be... 1. as multiple players suggested, weaker mode for lighter rewards. (hint hint wink wink story mode) and 2. Do not restrict to 3 res. stone, allow players to use as much as they need (like story mode, free ed sink if you don't have 1000 stash already)

        This way even a group of newbie friends would be more eager to run a weaker rewards raid w/o pressure of 3 res. stones only. Non restricted 3 res. stones can apply to weaker raid vs normal raid if anything to differentiate the challenge gap.

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        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class414907}}
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          #20
          vampyr raid DG requires specific characters. example, DPS, buff/debuff, BL and CeT.
          how about remove crucial "feature", like limitation for resurrection. i think ppl will change their mind. so characters with no specific roles can enter. and being carried,
          Last edited by YuiNechan-gaia-; 07-16-2019, 08:23 AM.

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          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415079}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level415079}}
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            #21
            Have you ever attempted Crimson Cradle without a Centurion, while playing a class that can't get super armor on demand through a skill? If so, did you succeed or fail? If you lost, was the reason you lost related to not having Tactical Field's super armor?

            Yes, succeed, stone apples + seasonal IB buff exist. Did it suck? Yes because cent provides a +40% dmg boost, so the raid took forever. Took long enough for people to start DC'ing. Removing tact field from the game doesn't change that fact that most classes can chain i-frames for a really long time. This is a huge potion drain, hence why BL/RaS are so demanded. Fun fact: they're not necessary. They're convenient. Pots are expensive, and if they're not there, people tend to chug. long raids = dc/higher risk wiping, and not spamming skills = longer raids. And besides RaS's biggest contribution is Shield + Timing her cooldown reset with the carry's skill rotation.

            Problem with removing the res stone limit:
            Raid is only difficult because of the res limit. If you remove it, there is pretty much 0 difficult PvE content outside of like idk Henir Challenge. You can facetank your way through 12-4 and 12-8 with a hundred res stones. It's not hard. It just takes a while. Raid is endgame content. You're supposed to know what you're doing, and have a very good grasp of your character and how it can avoid dmg/deal dmg/support. Story mode exists as a training ground, and it works just fine as a training ground. If you go into raid with no idea what you're doing, and complain when you wipe phase 1, that's on you.
            Last edited by SolaceLite-solace-; 07-18-2019, 03:52 AM.

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            • xEclipsa-solace-
              xEclipsa-solace- commented
              Editing a comment
              most rpg games with raids have a person that can revive so the difficulty is justified but in elsword the only way is to use a rez stone. now i would not say get rid of the rez limit but instead increase it.

              there is a delay before one can be revived with the 3 rez limit which is just insane. i wouldn't know what number of rezes would be good but anything more than 10 would not be good although 6 may be a good amount
          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415097}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level415097}}
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            #22
            Have you ever attempted Crimson Cradle without a Centurion?
            Without Super Armour/Without a healing class?


            Yes. Twice. Both attempts were absolutely fine because we were all prepared with Giant Stone apples. Some of the composition from what I can remember was Daybreaker (myself), Shakti, Code: Sariel, Bluhen and Apsara. This was before Flex Daybreaker made a comeback, so there was no 2-platform Siege cheesing at that point in time.

            We actually do have the tools to do raid without a Centurion. A Giant Stone apple gives Super Armour and damage reduction for 30 seconds, while giving a size increase. Keep this in mind.

            Not many people are aware that Giant Stone apples are essentially almost equivalent (if not actually equivalent) to Tactical Field. The reason a Centurion is preferred is because of the Super Armour and the space to have an extra consumable slot open. If a Giant Stone apple is required due to the lack of a Centurion, a Bluhen and/or Radiant Soul can be a good substitute for the lack of a potion slot, with a focus on Blume Rein.

            Many people have responded to my recommendation with "wouldn't the size increase kill you for Phase 2 lasers?" and the answer is actually a resounding "No" if you're aware of the stage's mechanics.

            Rosso's Phase 2 follows the order of Scythe phase > Tornados > Scythe Phase > Lasers > Repeat, with each of the Scythe phases lasting 60 seconds each. This means that you have time to use 4 Giant Stone apples before the lasers appear, and this isn't taking into consideration the animation for each of the Tornados and Lasers. This also applies to players who use Liquids for raids. Given that we now know that each phase lasts 60 seconds and Liquids last 120, it becomes pretty clear that they share the same cutoff points as Giant Stone apples for their increased size. Because of this, it's imperative to remember to time their usage to prevent their duration from extending for too long.

            Personally, I find it absurd that there are many parties that refuse to run without a Centurion, citing "it's inefficient to run without one". I think it's important to know how to deal with not having a Centurion as it makes them a better player, and I tend to place heavy importance on player growth. If we get too comfortable with requiring a Centurion, we learn nothing. It'll be difficult in the beginning of course, but nothing is easy without experience and practice. I can understand if it's a 12-7 grind for RE:Blaze where you want to maximise the chances of not dying, but I think it's reasonable to assume that you're not going to require a Centurion if you're only doing that one raid once, twice, maybe 3 times a week.

            Have I ever failed raids because of a lack of a Centurion? Absolutely, but I'm always one of the last few standing. When I do die, I know exactly what I did wrong and what I could've done to avoid that death. I used to always die until I learnt exactly what Rosso does and how to i-frame properly, as button mashing for i-frames while fighting Rosso is a one-way ticket to permadeath as I learnt the hard way. You also need to have a really, really good grasp on what your limits are, knowing your i-frames and your cast times. Knowing which skills can be chained seamlessly and which ones have a vulnerable window, knowing which buttons you can press as a panic button while you gather your wits to continue.

            An example off the top of my head is Daybreaker's Crazy Shot leaving you vulnerable at the end of its cast, meaning that you never want to i-frame with it. Ace in the Hole is a skill that is seamless as the first or second skill, meaning that you can chain into and out of it without leaving i-frames. I'd highly recommend attempting to chain i-frame Rosso's lingering fire to figure out what can and can't be chained seamlessly. It doesn't matter if it causes your demise as long as you learn that you can't chain X skill into Y. Treat every run as a learning experience to push the limits of yourself and the class you're playing until you're able to do the raid with no deaths.
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            • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415107}}
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              #23
              I have no idea why people mention stone apples. I can pretty clearly read...

              Originally posted by Hitotsuoboe-solace- View Post
              [b]What would have to change in order for you to be willing to attempt Normal Crimson Cradle without super armor?
              Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Hitotsuoboe idea when making this thread was to actually criticize these necessities. As in, what does it take to remove them completely, no replace them.
              Suggestions:

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              • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415113}}
                Level: {{esusrinfo_level415113}}
                Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild415113}}

                #24
                Originally posted by Tsugumari-solace- View Post
                I have no idea why people mention stone apples. I can pretty clearly read...



                Correct me if I am wrong, but I think Hitotsuoboe idea when making this thread was to actually criticize these necessities. As in, what does it take to remove them completely, no replace them.
                The answer is nothing. At least not anything without completely trivializing the raid, or fundamentally changing how it works.

                See the reason why super armor is necessary is because of readily available i-frames are. Because we have so many i-frames (and so many high% hp recovery potions), bosses need to be able to one-shot, or at least deal a lot of damage very very fast or they'll never kill you. This is why super armor is necessary (or at least why it's so demanded). I-frames are our primary defensive tool. Since many of rosso's attacks typically are the kind that deal a lot of dmg very fast, rather than the straight-up one-shot kind, you can save yourself with i-frames by mashing something the moment you see your HP tick down. There's also many attacks designed to fling you off the edge. This can be considered a core part of 12-7, seeing as there's a large focus on breaking platforms.

                Tactical field isn't the problem here. I-frames are. And you can't remove them without fundamentally changing how the game works/feels.

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                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class415154}}
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                  #25
                  Originally posted by SolaceLite-solace- View Post
                  The answer is nothing. At least not anything without completely trivializing the raid, or fundamentally changing how it works.
                  That's like having no creativity. You can simply remove potions to counter the iFrame problem. Henir does this with great success. Also, it does not matter if you trivialize the raid, as this will just allow more people to have access to it. This isn't something you necessarily need to avoid. Drabaki is more popular then Varnimyr raid for a reason. That reason mainly being it accessibility and how easy it is.

                  This isn't a typical console or PC game, where you fight a boss and move on. It's a game that requires repetition and farming. Most people will prefer to farm something trivial over something "hard". If you want to make a challenge, do content that only give rewards once for beating it and get's changed up every month or so, inducing a new reward. Challenges should come in a "once and done" format, not a "beat daily or weekly" task of doing the very same thing as last day/week.
                  Suggestions:

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                  • SolaceLite-solace-
                    SolaceLite-solace- commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Limiting pots just makes BL+ Cent even more necessary. LF>Raid need 2bl + cent lmao. The reason why Henir chall works is because it's a solo dungeon. Drabaki is more popular because it's more accessable, yes, but it also takes a minute to nuke it. Raid at least is engaging. And henir doesn't fix the i-frame problem. it just forces you to be smarter about it.

                  • Tsugumari-solace-
                    Tsugumari-solace- commented
                    Editing a comment
                    SolaceLite-solace-
                    You are not nuking Drabaki with a group that has only 150k CP. Period. Of yours things get easier if you are overgeared. That's how it should be.

                    There is no need to use BL and Cent if it's trivial. You could use anybody. The only reason you need those two is because of the difficulty, more specific HP and Damage. That beeng said, the problem itself is omnipresent and not limited to raid. The simplest solution is to reduce the values of those skill as well. Yes, that limit's support option but Elsword is not the right game for that anyway. What you want is a dungeon where you can use the random queue and clear it with that. If raid is considered engaging, why do we have this discussion in the first place? Obliviously it would be pointless as everything should be fine.
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