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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410657}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level410657}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410657}}

    This game has changed, for the worse.

    I use to play this back in the day, a couple years ago. I took a break after a major car accident and some other issues. I found myself wanting to return because I loved this game and Grand Chase. I couldn't remember my main account so I made a new Ara for each class, and starting talking my friends into playing.

    I found myself incredibly disappointed...

    Half the game has been removed, leveling has been streamlined and made way too easy, music is gone and the experience is not at all the same. Like the majority of people, I am never going to be competing for top clear times in the world or highest pvp rank. That is 90% of us, let's not kid ourselves. I play the game to have fun and go on adventures, improve my combos. Enjoy the characters, master certain mechanics.

    There has been this transformation of perception on the point of an RPG. If the point was to reach max level *then* start playing... just remove leveling?

    The point is to have an adventure, preferably with friends, while leveling. And learn about the world, master your skill set and enjoy the story. Then when you eventually reach max level, PVP and boss clear times are suppose to be the reason you keep playing even though the game is *over*. Some continued mastery for the dedicated.

    When you make leveling too refined and easy it becomes a boring but necessary grind. Rather than the game being the experience of playing the game, and you just gain some power as you go, leveling becomes that annoying thing you have to get out of the way really quick so you can play the end game content. That end game content having no more meaning and often a lot more repetitive. End game content is fun, but for the most part(as far as pve is concerned) it is no different than the rest of the game except you have your skills all unlocked.

    I know Cataclysm started this trend of games doing this in WoW, making leveling this super easy thing, where you can be level 50 from a couple hours of playing and there is no experience in doing it. But that doesn't mean every game has to copy it.

    I mean you do realize as a business, new players like my friends, who would expand the playerbase and repopulate it, get bored and leave if the early game content is trash right? They don't care about the end game experience, they aren't invested yet.

    Maybe this post sounds more aggressive than it should be. I am just really tired of game creators thinking all everyone cares about is high level pvp and boss clear world scores. That doesn't keep games alive for the common player, it never has and never will.

    And now I am out. I said my peace. Have a nice day!
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410659}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level410659}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410659}}

    #2
    Yes I definitely agree, I've been watching many games get more and more streamlined as time went on and find myself less and less interested in these games. It's weird because it seems like I'm not the only one. More and more I hear about people playing games like Brood War and Age of Empires II over more recent games. Hell, Classic WoW is sort of taking over all talk of WoW anymore, because those grinds that people like me used to consider 'annoying' were how communities were created. Skipping content, removing content, doing away with the entire leveling experience has just cheapened the game as a whole for me, and it's no longer fun.

    Comment

    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410662}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level410662}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410662}}

      #3
      Originally posted by MiraTraveler-solace- View Post
      leveling becomes that annoying thing you have to get out of the way really quick so you can play the end game content.
      I cannot be bothered to sit down and reply to the entire thing (ain't nobody got time for that) but you can't tell me you find Hamel annoying now without experiencing leveling that darn place 4 years ago. s/o to all the fallen comrades who had to level base Luciels for the +10.

      Elsword does have it's ups and downs admittedly, but it's not really fair if you ignore the ups, push it aside and pretend that it doesn't exist. Levelling felt more like a chore back then compared to now, and I don't think most people wanna go back to that kind of progress. I do agree that there's further room for improvement in terms of level progressing feeling swoosh, but I'd personally say it's better than before at least rather than "changing for the worst"."

      Market Thread || Code of Conduct || phoen || Taking a break

      Comment


      • voltecks-solace-
        voltecks-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        bruh if you're playing an anime mmo you ain't normal

      • Predestine-solace-
        Predestine-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        I will say, that water level in Hamel was definitely not fun, even when I first started playing the game.

      • Spaise-solace-
        Spaise-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        I'd honestly take back the old leveling to what it is now, Hamel's frustrating runs n' all.
        If we can have those back without the old RNG quests like moonstones, even better.
        Screw fighting Glacier though, that fight's still annoying to this day.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410664}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level410664}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410664}}

      #4
      You guys' issues are what I've been trying to pinpoint the entire time ever since maybe 1~2 years ago.

      Yes, the problems of anything not-late-game is an issue that I've been a broken record about. Since NA server is piloted by the mother - KR server, if there's no demand of such things from a certain group of high-level players (probably), then no one will look into it.

      They've recently proposed to have a more transparent meeting with their players so we'll just have to hope more people care about it.

      Meanwhile, this is a stale time-sink for numbers we're installing.

      But at least the forum + discord group will welcome you with open arms, it's one of the only reasons to stay.
      Last edited by CrimsomRayko-solace-; 06-12-2019, 12:09 PM.

      Comment


      • MiraTraveler-solace-
        Editing a comment
        I just want them to do something to make the early/mid game more interesting. I have no major problems with the end game, maybe because I usually play it for a short while then start a new toon so I will leave that to people who know it better. But anything not end game content is kinda trash these days. And it ruined my chance to get a couple friends into the game as well. People like the person above don't even realize it is a huge part of why the population isn't renewing. Sure leveling feels like a chore when you've already played the game a ton and are just leveling another character. But it is suppose to be an adventure for new players, to pull them into the game.

      • CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Editing a comment
        The main point being, they still don't see early-mid-to- late-game transitions a necessary thing to change at the moment. Even something close to locking fast level-up as a New Game+ EXP boost can dampen the speed at which new people gloss through things. Earlier on, some hidden mechanics are also not explained very clearly and so on...

        We'll see what happens in the future because this game definitely needs more new players considering the current trending events.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410675}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level410675}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410675}}

      #5
      I am pretty sure you are not resonance level 999 yet. Leveling was never hard in the past. Never.
      Also "speedruns" always depended on gear, that also hasn't changed.

      You are just noticing the flaws, that have always been there. The game has not changed for the worst, you are just directly influenced now. Making it engaging for new players is a completely different story. If it does't make click but get's boring. If you are not look forward what skills to unlock and what's to come, then this isn't the game for you. You will not easily find a F2P game that instantly impresses. Most standard games don't even do that.
      Suggestions:

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      • CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Editing a comment
        In a literal sense, it's less messy because it is streamlined. In a figurative sense though, is what you said about how badly the game is teaching their players.

        You see players dying against Bone Dragon over and over, without the knowledge of skill usages, MB-ing, pattern recognition.... then they proceed to get carried by a farming player and learn so little from experience.

        The game just leaves this mess to the players themselves, telling them to study vids and wikis is kind-of a tall order when they are not even that invested anyway. Just throwing those players away and say "this game is not for you", it's true, though who's really at fault? (when the player is the customer)

        In which case, yes, the it didn't get messier, it just throws the mess at the player in a bad pacing and the mess builds up whenever they add a general "hidden" feature.
        Last edited by CrimsomRayko-solace-; 06-13-2019, 03:33 AM.

      • Tsugumari-solace-
        Tsugumari-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Yes, I agree. But as mentioned, it didn't get worse. It was just never improvement significantly. To be fair, it is hard to do that. My whole point is that those things have always been there. The critique isn't wrong. It wrong to say it got worse. The latter is just nostalgia. A game always feels more interesting when you play it for the first time.

      • CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Editing a comment
        It actually didn't get that-much worse, I agree after some thought.

        Though I think I should've phrased it in future tense.

        Say we have a [Off-topic, but content from KR in the future may introduce a general ability for all characters], depending on how they implement it, these things may pile up the prelim-knowledge a player would need to have.

        This accumulates more things for their "tutorial" (which currently, mentions the basic commands + awakening against a dummy, last time I checked), especially when early-game doesn't need much thinking to play rn.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410681}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level410681}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410681}}

      #6
      Reaching 99 is just a stop gap, it is neither a beginning or end, it is something that lies in the middle (still like middle end but still middle).

      Though on a personal level, I do think their choice to actually cap leveling at 99 was a mistake. They should have allowed us to keep leveling beyond as the next region was introduced, especially if it means we'd be able to have gear with general more proficient stats which would more easily let people attain the now imposed CP requirements. They could even had it work alongside ERP, it wouldn't be difficult to do. Just have it so characters 99 and above will earn ERP and EXP simultaneously. EXP still being character specific but ERP being account wide as it is.

      Besides Laby who has a stupidly truncated level progression since she'll get to 98 in the span of only 11 dungeons, progressing with anybody else is still pretty fair, especially considering this is still a dungeon based game, and the exp returns have been scaled for the most part to flow alongside the dungeons.

      Besides Laby who levels up way too fast for her own good, the rate of progression for everybody else is fair in my opinion. Especially so now since skill quests (besides the Trans ones) aren't a living RNG nightmare anymore.
      Last edited by Gunz224-solace-; 06-12-2019, 02:57 PM.

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      • CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Editing a comment
        Idk but going back to Nasod Mines to just finish a PVP quest and the Basic Training breaks my pacing pretty badly even if it's early-on + 100% drops, a prelude to the Atlas grind.

      • Gunz224-solace-
        Gunz224-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        Drop Rate doesn't affect quest drops. Plus all the skill quests are quite short and sweet, every single one before HA only require at max two drops, with most of them spanning two regions so you'd more than likely get them from just playing. Though truthfully, I honestly never do the PvP quests cause I don't really ever PvP.

      • CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Editing a comment
        It used to give out the Champion Accs which looked really nice. + an EXP medal is a thing but it doesn't matter when we speed through things anyway.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410711}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level410711}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410711}}

      #7
      Personally, I think the streamlined leveling was a great change to the game. According to your post, leveling became an “annoying thing you have to get out of the way really quick so you can play the end game content.” This is your opinion as a returning player that might not remember everything but still has a good idea of how to play. But you have to understand that the leveling process is necessary to introduce people that have never played before to the game’s mechanics. Now here’s my perspective on a streamlined leveling system. By lowering the amount of time it takes to reach the level cap, the game allows players to have access to all of its mechanics rather than having to learn and change their playstyle as they go. You noted that that you would have preferred to “learn about the world, master your skill set and enjoy the story” and that pvp/clear times are the factor that would keep people playing. As a dungeon based fighting game, most, if not all, of the story and world building is done through the main story quest which you can read through without actually running the necessary dungeons thanks to the skip function. While there might be people that enjoy the close ended grind of slowly reaching the cap, many of the current mmos, as you’ve stated, stopped using the philosophy that leveling is the grind and have switched over to a much more rng-based system of loot grinding. The grind in this game, much like many other mmos, is for gear. I think what you’re looking for isn’t an mmo, but some triple A title, like Borderlands, that has a clearly defined end point and a story that develops as you play. As you’ve also stated, the game is a business. The devs aren’t trying to make something that players will enjoy for a week and quit. How often do you hear the phrase “I heard xx mmo had a really fulfilling early game experience. It might be worth checking out.”? Typically, it’s the new releases and end game content that bring in new players. It’s gonna sound harsh but I think you’re looking for something specific in the wrong place, and you’re really just complaining for the sake of complaining.

      tl;dr This game does have issues, but it’s hard to claim that the leveling system is one of them. The condensed grind allows new players to learn the game’s mechanics while reducing the amount of time it would take for them to reach the content that everyone else is currently playing.

      Comment


      • CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Editing a comment
        New players are attracted to new releases and maybe endgame content (new releases don't have to be for endgame exclusively), I agree, though it really depends on the content's PR.

        I'd say fulfilling the early-game experience helps on the downtime experience, when no new content or content hype is introduced (pretty-much where we're at, and where we're gonna be at later-on.).

        If new content doesn't require endgame, with some tweaking to restrict botting gains, new players don't have to run towards the end for their enjoyment.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410726}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level410726}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410726}}

      #8
      To be honest those dungeons after the fieta region were pretty dead before they made level easier. I couldn't count on my hand the amount of characters that I left to collect dust the moment they reached the hamel area. Hamel, as pretty as it looks took too long to level up and burned through your daily revives (only 3 back then) making it an even more tedious task. Increasing the experience gained in those regions were needed since nobody enjoyed playing those areas again after their first character was maxed.

      However, I do also miss a lot of the things that were removed from the game. The resting mid town areas, the nostalgic moments of running through the old field areas, and most of all, some of the early dungeons that were larger and had multiple pathways to make the runs feel less repetitive.
      Heros come and go but legends live forever

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      • CrimsomRayko-solace-
        Editing a comment
        They could have introduced an EXP boost for alt characters when there's a capped character in the list, if that's the only problem.

        And I believe this idea was a suggestion from awhile ago~

      • MyShinyTeeth-solace-
        Editing a comment
        It may have been a better alternative to go about doing it. However, we do have ERP now which is similar. It's just more costly to reset.
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410783}}
      Level: {{esusrinfo_level410783}}
      Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410783}}

      #9
      I guess, the game as it is right now is made (adjusted?) to keep old players in, than to gain new ones.
      Or maybe it always has been, just didn't notice until you're part of the "old players" because there ARE "new ones".

      Comment

      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410794}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level410794}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410794}}

        #10
        In regards to the streamlining, the only problem I really see with it is that it also dumbed down a lot of stuff. For example, dungeons used to have branching paths, some multiple in fact. This would add variety to the leveling process. Mob placements and platforming used to be more varied, now it's all more or less the same across early dungeons. The problem with streamlining is not so much streamlining itself, but how they went about doing it, removing elements that would engage the player more and help them learn. Laby's dungeons are overall pretty good, but if you compare her dungeons to the normal leveling dungeons that got streamlined they really just don't compare.

        Youtube: Stratagem

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        • CrimsomRayko-solace-
          Editing a comment
          They dumbed down the stats, then figured separate paths don't matter if people don't get punished either way. *shrug*
      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410816}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level410816}}
        Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410816}}

        #11
        "Lvl.99" is indeed the max lvl, but it's only the start of the real grind that's called ERP and equipment grinds. That's more than enough grind for almost anyone to get bored.

        Also almost all of the stuff u can do at endgame requires socializing like rosso raid, snek, title grinds, erp grinds, equipment grinds, pvp, market, and even fashion. Before we can just solo everything, like everything except pvp ofc. There's just so much more to do now on post lvl.99 than before.

        Streamlining of pre-lvl.99 dgs is all fine and good. I just don't like how they "streamlined" the normal dg equipment too, not only they have no set effects but most of all they can't be MW'd unlike the not re-proportioned and not re-textured old normal dg equipment.

        So in conclusion the game is definitely not "worse" compared to the time when Ran keels everyone. It's only worse when ppl only see the bad parts or parts they don't like.

        Comment

        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410823}}
          Level: {{esusrinfo_level410823}}
          Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410823}}

          #12
          Well the problem of the game is suited and designed to kr average equipment what is +10 end gear, but here only cashing hard can get you in +10/+11, so you hit a big pay wall in your face when you reach Elysion and especialy Valmir, so you can´t play the last half of Valmir contend.

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          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410843}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level410843}}
            Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410843}}

            #13
            The game is its worst stat yes. Leveling is not a part of the problem.

            "Let justice be done, though the Heavens fall."

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            • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410844}}
              Level: {{esusrinfo_level410844}}
              Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410844}}

              #14
              Are you aware of what has been done to the game so far? If you've been gone for a while I assume not, so I'll list some here for you.

              1. SD gear is now outdated, the new norm is Void. Back then you had to get coins from every SD, and the coins (only 2) were daily rewards. The grind for a weapon is still there, just not spread out over 7 different dungeons and taking up 2 rows of inventory. Achievements were also introduced to automatically give you the weapon at the end of 1000 runs.

              2. Quality of Life changes. These are too numerous to state but here are the very notable ones in my opinion:
              - Minimum inventory slots increased to 5 rows, this was previously 3.
              - All potions and elixirs now stack to a maximum of 300, this was previously 100 and 30 respectively. Plays into giving you more inventory space.

              3. Potions are no longer a problem due to Event dungeons. These are dungeons that take literally 1-3 minutes to complete for FREE potions. These also give free costumes that you can socket for the stats as long as you put in the effort.

              4. Events that give out heaps of free stuff. We've been given free costumes, potions, more inventory space, pets and ICE FREAKING BURNERS.

              5. Pets were revamped to not be as obnoxious to train. Now it's much easier (very recent update).

              6. Enhancement events giving out free enhancement materials, and I don't mean just one or two. We previously had an event where we were given 10 restoration scrolls a week for 3 (?) weeks, and the bulk of the cost of upgrading is actually in the scrolls and not the fluorites.

              7. Way more 2x EXP and Drop rate events compared to before due to the introduction of ERP.

              8. El tear and Mystic stone dailies and weeklies. These didn't even exist when Elrianode and Varnimyr first hit. In fact, I'd go as far to say that if you joined the game now and/or came back, you'd actually have a much easier time compared to before.

              9. Elite El tears now drop sealed. They didn't use to be. We're also being given Gold seals left, right and centre.

              What most new players lack is the knowledge of how and what to grind. Back then it was very simple and obvious that SDs were end-game. It should come as no surprise that there is a new end-game now, and there has to be or the game goes stale. I've said this before and I'll say this again, KOG has done a pretty good job at trying to get new players up to speed. Hell, if you want to come back and just grind SDs because it's what you're familiar with, Barrier Fragments are actually pretty good money, not to mention that SDs got nerfed to the ground so making money while undergeared is completely possible.

              The second point I like to make is that a lot of players don't have their priorities right. I would much rather have a +11 weapon with 2 IBs than a +8 weapon with 10 IBs. If you have the money to spend (and I know of a lot of people who do, I personally don't) and your first instinct is to buy IBs, the problem lies with you. If you're willing and able to spend money, gear should always come first, and once you're self-sustainable you no longer have to dip into your pockets to fund yourself. Prioritising dressup is being very short-sighted. I don't know if you're this kind of person but it'll most definitely affect your experiences negatively.

              In terms of communication, or if you're feeling lonely, Discord is pretty much what everyone uses now since Elsword's in-game chat system is pretty garbage.

              MMOs are a marathon, not a sprint. Back then there wasn't much in the game to grind for, making it more or less a sprint to level 80 and SD gear, then you'd sit around twiddling thumbs in spar or chatting. There are more things to do now compared to back then due to changes to gear, and I can understand feeling overwhelmed by the amount of work you have to do to catch up. However, there is nobody holding a gun to your head telling you that if you don't achieve X amount of gear in Y amount of time they'll shoot you. There is no reason to rush.

              But, if all you do is come back to the game, immediately get onto the forums and complain that the game is bad, you're just not willing to accept that the game has progressed and want to stay in the safe space of what's familiar to you. Why are you writing off the game before even giving it a red-hot go?
              PVE and GA Guide

              My Youtube Channel

              Tearbox.io Programmed and developed by Line, Tearbox greatly helps with compiling all your El Tears into a simple, readable format, with filters to help with finding the exact tears you need!

              ashal.eu Programmed by Ashallia, this is a huge database that allows you to calculate your stats, play around with accessory combinations and even theorycraft your IDs. It also comes with an IB simulator for your RNG-addiction!

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              • Class: {{esusrinfo_class410845}}
                Level: {{esusrinfo_level410845}}
                Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild410845}}

                #15
                Making 1-99 easy was a QoL change for me because those early/midgame dungeons were tedious af. Not to mention job changes and skill quests used to have RNG associated with the drops.

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