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My Honest Feelings on Laby's Incoming Release

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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380275}}
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    My Honest Feelings on Laby's Incoming Release

    I'm more apprehensive than I am curious. If you want to know why... well, the video below unforunately holds a lot of objective truth in it.





    It has felt like Elsword has been caught in this cycle of disrepair, rife with issues that the community has continually pointed out but never got a fix for.

    Let's take a really simple example: Ain's Z attacks. The backswings on them hit behind Ain and can drag anyone along behind him, letting him combo a target he wasn't even facing properly, which can net him some fairly undeserved attacks in PvP. People noticed this within a couple weeks of Ain's release. He still has these backwards hitboxes today. What possible reason would there be to keep such an obvious issue in the game?

    What about the Drabaki Raid? We've had it for several months now, and at this point, most people who have played the Raid have been fed a forced death due to poison fog popping up during a cutscene - while consumables are disabled during cutscenes. The only options that are left (assuming you don't just take the death) are to use a hyperactive for I-frames (assuming it's even long enough to help you) or have something like Elite Obtenebration (if you're that lucky or wealthy). This has been mentioned as a frustration several times over, and wouldn't be as much of a problem if we just had the ability to use consumables during the cutscene to heal and stop the poison from killing us. But alas, we're still stuck in the same situation we have been for months.

    The Varnimyr Raids haven't been modified in a little while, and might be in the final form we'll have them in. Of course, there's still latency-based glitches that can make the instant-kill attack in phase 2 of 12-5 impossible to dodge or trigger lethal attacks in phase 3 of 12-6 long after they were supposed to happen that are still around, both leading to almost guaranteed deaths in battles with limited revives. However, I fear that these may never get addressed.

    Of course, we also have huge flaws in much older content that still pervade large sections of gameplay. I even have an ongoing list here about things that very clearly don't work properly in PvP, to the point where any sane player would see it as the game malfunctioning. There's over 100 different issues stated here (and I still have things I need to ADD to it), some of which are probably over 4 years old, and it's been over two months since any patch has let me remove problems from this list, despite how destructive some of these problems are to the game's balance.

    We can't forget stuff like storage, either, where cancelled attacks come out anyways - even if the user already DIED. I find this one particularly offensive, because I've reported several different instances of this in PvE (examples include Berthe's Ice Beam, Fallen Helputt's Pain of Caladbolg, and half the things in Elysion Tower)... and GM responses called storage intentional, refusing to correct them. It's not like this is a problem that's staying in the past, either - storage on dungeon mobs even exists in Varnimyr. (Take 12-3, the Dark Elf Outpost, for example - both the Sentinel Tracker mobs and the Fae Panther miniboss have howls that will persist... or even START... if the beast using them died during the windup.) If you want to check this out yourself, next time you're in the Gate of Darkness, try killing one of the Berthes or Durahans as it winds up its special attack (Berthe's Ice Beam, or the Durahan's Sword Wave) - you'll probably get smacked by the attack your now-dead enemy failed to finish using.





    So with all of this in mind... do I hate the release of Laby?

    No, I don't really hate Laby herself. What I really hate is the new content release cycle stated above - which goes so far as to explicitly ignore major issues in the game in order to move forward.

    Don't get me wrong - I know that new content needs to be released to provide players with new ways to enjoy the game. But I need to refer back to my storage anecdote - the way that this ignorance feels intentional. The game is already crippled in various ways because these issues have lingered for so long, been pointed out, and still never got fixed.

    I have genuine concerns that this will just end up happening again with various things Laby has. I will point out that we haven't exactly had an unbiased look at Laby in NA quite yet - while there were several streams of people previewing Laby in the NA beta server, keep in mind that you had to appreciate Laby to have the chance to preview her. This means that, in most cases, only people who already liked the idea of Laby's release would be among those getting the first look at her.

    On top of this, I've heard remarks from KR about how Laby already has problems with her hitboxes. Hearing this is terrifying given the hitbox issues we still have with Ain's base commands (and various other characters as well).



    I can appreciate the release of the new content, as well as the apparent amount of effort KOG put into giving Laby her own storyline and dungeon set. I just really hope it doesn't come at the cost of introducing even more obvious, dangerous problems that won't ever be fixed. I really don't want this cycle to keep going.

    This is just a viewpoint I wanted to get out for people to consider and keep in mind as we move forward - thank you all for hearing me out.
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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380278}}
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    #2

    "We can't forget stuff like storage, either, where cancelled attacks come out anyways - even if the user already DIED. I find this one particularly offensive, because I've reported several different instances of this in PvE (examples include Berthe's Ice Beam, Fallen Helputt's Pain of Caladbolg, and half the things in Elysion Tower)... and GM responses called storage intentional"

    it is, because it was to address the skill mp/CD being active after being canceled by getting attack at the last second.
    everyone was asking them to fix that, its why we got the skill storage thing now.
    sadly it effects bosses and not just us.

    Comment


    • Leysiel-solace-
      Leysiel-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      Storage has existed before the change that made cancelled skills not cost MP or go on cooldown (for example, Steel Body and Pain of Caladbolg have had storage since those characters came out). The difference now is primarily two things: the way they're making attacks now is more prone to allowing storage, and (in the case of PvP) cancelled skills not going on cooldown means that you have more chances to try to cause storage.

    • CitizenSix-solace-
      CitizenSix-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      The double skills in PvP (skill showing up twice on screen but once for other player) is awful. I miss when the system discouraged spamming (because you'd lose your mana/go on cooldown if canceled). This current system encourages people to just mash their buttons as fast as possible to get into that miniscule window of time where your attack will come out twice. That change alone made PvP pretty undesirable. Sometimes I wonder if the devs even play their own game.
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380279}}
    Level: {{esusrinfo_level380279}}
    Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild380279}}

    #3
    poison death does not count toward the meter

    phase 2 12-5 is exactly like solace and you have plenty of time. the way he faces means the whirlwind is behind him( or in front one of them)

    Comment


    • Corsets-solace-
      Corsets-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      You seem to be missing the point.
      Just because deaths to the fog do not count towards the meter does not mean it's not a problem. Why should I be made to watch my character die and have nothing to do about it? I don't think that's good design.
      12-5-2 gives plenty of time before the attack. But plenty of time means nothing if Rosso can glitch out and carry out this attack in places other than the middle of the room. This causes the tornadoes to also spawn elsewhere, mostly out of reach, and you only get to keep your resurrection stone if you knew this prior to fighting him and had Eclipse or Forginay's Fruit on.
      Last edited by Corsets-solace-; 01-01-2019, 05:39 PM.

    • Treasure-solace-
      Treasure-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      Latency can mess up the spawning of the tornadoes and cause it to deal continuous hitstun on the ground, but doesn't launch you up. Knowing the pattern does not help in the slightest if the tornadoes can bug out.
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380287}}
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    #4
    yes, i completely agree with you

    when i first heard of laby's release i was furious. i didn't hate laby herself, but to me it felt like it was more of "here's a new character to enjoy! forget about all the OBVIOUS things we haven't fixed yet!" how is releasing a 13th character going to fix the balance issues?! why are you releasing a 13th character when you haven't even released 3rd job cut ins?! and i could go on and on...

    Comment

    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380295}}
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      #5
      You should be aware by now that KOG lives for the hypes. They have good ideas but the execution is often terrible.
      I disagree with the repair part of the video. KOG does not repair things, they shift things. Purposely making people go "Oh!". They literary go for what creates the most attention. Look how much they invested into the Raid and Laby. They got their own song.
      Fun fact, that is actually listening to the playerbase and why I say you should not listen to every thing the community says. What you mentioned, while annoying, is something people will deal with. Fixing it does not create a "Oh!" effect, so no time is invested here.

      The community, not just NA, is partially at fault as well. After all we are the ones who "get hyped". Maybe not every individual, but the as whole. Good luck doing the Persona 5 thing.
      Last edited by Tsugumari-solace-; 01-02-2019, 10:41 AM.
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      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380314}}
        Level: {{esusrinfo_level380314}}
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        #6
        Fully agree with all of this. I absolutely love Laby; her dungeons, her concept, everything, and I'm excited for her release this Thursday - I only wish she was released when the game was more ready for it. It was mentioned however that most characters will receive individual revamps so I'm holding onto the hope some of their issues will be resolved and maybe more attention will be paid to bugs.
        187/200 ERP

        Comment

        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380349}}
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          #7
          Kinda agree with what Tsugu have said.

          A lot of the dev team's changes tends to try and balance thing by : "shuffling one thing to another", "lessen the loss in the bugs/annoying features(but it still exist)" or "just ignoring it until it's neglected as new content pushes the former behind."

          Zero's video saying "fixing" is more like "waiting out the content life cycle so people care less about earlier bugs/issues".

          __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________________



          As for Laby and other new content these days.


          This is why I'm on a hiatus.

          Comment

          • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380357}}
            Level: {{esusrinfo_level380357}}
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            #8
            *sips tea and it's unsweet*

            Comment

            • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380381}}
              Level: {{esusrinfo_level380381}}
              Guild Name: {{esusrinfo_guild380381}}

              #9
              when it comes down to it, i just want new ways to play the game. the pvp side of things is practically desolate, and not because of blatant imbalance but raw apathy and disinterest in the mode. that side of the community ebbs and flows with what few competitive outlets are finally thrown that way, infrequent enough to never garner any real momentum. even the other day when i was playing, matches felt repetitive and monotonous, as if it's just one big grind fest with no real early reward. no silly change (even if important) like getting rid of all the bs and dishonesty i've learned to deal with is going to revitalize the mode in a new and fresh way. in fact, say my class had something dumb like storage that got patched one day. it makes my class and how i'll play more honest and intensive, but that has no effect on my opponent. i'm still going up against the same ridiculous stuff i always have, but now more at a disadvantage. now, switch the positions. my opponent's class became more honest. that's great, except that's 1 class i'll encounter out of the game's soon to be 40. i'm not gonna be thinking of or experiencing that change that much to warrant an entire patch for it.

              do you see the picture i'm illustrating? it's really cool to fix these sorts of issues in the gaps between new content, but they don't attract users themselves or incentivise then to suddenly play more than that already do. pve also gets stale, unless there's something new or something to work towards that's worth it. so when the entire crux of your post is essentially "hey there are still all these things you gotta fix so why are you releasing this update???", i'm a little baffled, because playing old content that marginally gets better vs. playing new content with the same old problems seems like the better alternative.

              the cycle you mentioned is just the repurcussions of that, and honestly, that's just how you keep the game at this stage alive. again, it's totally cool to look at these sorts of issues in between new content (and they do, for the most part. probably too much, in fact, as there's this mindnumbing lull between some random balance patch and the next actual update), but i don't understand the premise of "this game is not ready for a new character" when i'm sure a lot of players would want nothing more than to have a new way to play the game.

              ​​​



              Comment

              • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380412}}
                Level: {{esusrinfo_level380412}}
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                #10
                It’s hard to feed a family fixing old content it seems, unfortunately. Good luck getting out of this ugly cycle, KOG. I honestly think there needs to better management among financial distribution to help stop this evil cycle. There needs to be decisiveness and dedication to go full-on tackling these issues for a certain period of time.
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                • Class: {{esusrinfo_class380476}}
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                  #11
                  This game is, and has been for years, centered around making a character popular and then making that character overpowered so more people would switch to that character and be incentivised to spend money on it. They've been doing this once they noticed Eve's popularity in KR, as more people use it and want to spend money on it to make them even stronger, and that is an unconscious dopamine booster. It's basic psychology. Popularity derived by imbalance is a money maker -- that's it.

                  Comment

                  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class381373}}
                    Level: {{esusrinfo_level381373}}
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                    #12
                    Sorry this is late. Regarding the Laby hype event - it was not the only way to access the test server, though this might not've been apparent to everyone. It's true, the hype event was designed towards players that had the motivation (which happened to be a majority positive hype) to play Laby, so the event was catered towards them. We would have also accepted answers such as, "I'm very skeptical about Laby, and I would like to try her (and maybe make a video) describing my experiences and give feedback about her."

                    Edit: I just noticed that the contest description does have "appreciate Laby" plastered all over it, but that wasn't exactly what we were intending. Our fault for the miscommunication, but any hype would've worked.

                    Other methods (that I am aware) of obtaining keys were:
                    • Randomly get an email offer. (Players that were more active may have had a better chance - I noticed many players I knew got one.)
                    • Be a guild master (?). Active and well-known guilds were given keys to distribute to their members to participate in the test server.
                    • Be an Elsword streamer (regularly or irregularly). Many streamers were given this opportunity, and I would assume that the GMs were monitoring Twitch prior to the test server to look for candidates.
                    • Win stream key giveaways, including GM Livestream, COBOTV, and other streamers that were given extra keys.
                    • Forum Hype Event - show your ambition to play Laby and you'll have a chance to play.
                    • Be a prominent Elsword player in PVE or PVP, with knowledge regarding Elsword mechanics.
                    I don't know if I've missed any other methods, but these are all methods that do not require you to be excited for her release to obtain a key. I do believe that they've picked people that can give constructive feedback towards Laby's design, while also providing people who are just excited to play a chance to jump in early.


                    About the other points, I don't think I'm credible enough to add on but they are all valid criticisms that I'll personally keep in mind.
                    Last edited by ohhnoes; 01-06-2019, 05:49 PM.

                    Comment


                    • Aqua
                      Aqua commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Not only Twitch streamers, but people who have a YouTube channel also seems to be a method.

                    • Hitotsuoboe-solace-
                      Editing a comment
                      Ah, I wasn't aware that there were alternative ways to get into the beta. Thanks for letting me know about those.

                      I guess I shouldn't be surprised about the popular players getting invites (which would let word about Laby spread as much as possible), but hearing that active players/guild masters were also getting invites is a bit more of a relief. Those active players would have a better chance of being both more experienced players and more neutral regarding Laby, compared to those who got into the beta via the contest.
                  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class382449}}
                    Level: {{esusrinfo_level382449}}
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                    #13
                    Some of my feelings about Laby (would take too long to write my each and every gripe):

                    Why is the 'groggy' state of Laby stored when using that black branchy attack? I stacked resists against it and her grabby throw can't stun me but the black branchy attack will stun me even when I clearly resist it. No matter what, the groggy state hits you even if your skill finishes after. Why groggy state, anyway? Why couldn't she just get a stun like all of the other characters with stuns? Why does she get an HA Tier stun on special actives? Why does almost all of her normals end with super armor? Why does Mystique have stun at all with such insane range? Why does she have such insane suction on some of her skills? What in the absolute heck is a Laby Orb and why does it exist? Why is the bounce on that one attack of hers SO INSANELY POWERFUL? It's super trolly in dungeons when you're trying to hit a mob and the mob goes FLYING through the air to reach Nirvana. It's insane.

                    Yeah, this quickly turned into a Laby salt post but seriously, the heck is going on with this game? Just when I finally get used to a character being absolutely irritating and broken a new and even more irritating one comes out. And of course, the people who bandwagon to Laby defend her vehemently. Can't tell if they are trolling or actually believe what they are saying.

                    Comment


                    • Abeyll-solace-
                      Abeyll-solace- commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Most people that don't have the gear to OS monsters with Kapow Punch don't even know they can root them with Crunch N'Munch to avoid launching them. You can blame them because these are the kind of people that can't even read their own skills. It's as bad as ungeared Herrscher/Apostasia making everything fly, I feel you on that.
                      As for the "stun" on the "black branchy attack" well it's not really a stun, it's more akin to Void Field, the skill (Crunch N Munch) immobilize the targets for 3 seconds.
                      About all the groggy stuns she has and super armor, I agree that it is too much. That's kinda dumb actually. But once you know how she works, she's not "all that" powerful actually. I like fighting her better than Ara or Ravens for example.
                      Aside from that I don't feel like she's irritating, except when I see Labys using Smash in pve, that bothers me a lot lol.
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