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  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class386147}}
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    Adrian’s folly?

    I have been wondering this thing regarding Adrian Nasod aka “The father of the Nasods”. According to him, after having created the Nasods (the artificial intelligences named after his family name) he scared that they (the Nasods) would rebel against humans and destroying humanity, and he came to the conclusion that was because they all lacked human emotions.

    He tried to fix it by making Nasods with human emotions in the future. But his decision gave me doubts regarding the wisdom of Adrian.

    Had Adrian, who maybe is the most intelligent human in Elsword universe we have known of, never left his ivory tower to simply observe the people and reading history? If not then how could he come to such a naive conclusion that if the Nasods possessed emotions, it would increase the chance of survival for humanity?

    Because I see humans or other races with emotions have been destroying each othes/among themselves since their inceptions.

    In fact if the Nasods have emotions, I think that would give them even more motivations to destroy humans if they feel their existences are threatened by humans.

    So what do you think? When instead of Asimov’s Three laws of robotic, Adrian came up with EMOTIONS instead?

    Would the Nasods rebel against their human masters had they had emotions from the start? Would they just lay down their weapons and standing still for humans to destroy/enslave them... because they had emotions?????
    Last edited by Tyrannicide-solace-; 01-29-2019, 05:08 AM.
    "I hereby declare:...the remnants of the high nobility who plan to reverse the flow of history and steal by force the rights that the people have established will receive a suitable repayment for this atrocity." - Reinhard von Lohengramm.
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class386190}}
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    #2
    Short Answer: No I think he made the wrong choice.
    Long answer:
    If they get emotions - then the nasod/robot thingies can become selfish - thus how wars can start etc
    Actually IF they had emotions - they have a higher likelihood to fight back imo
    they would feel anger to the humans that are enslaving them - they would rise up and rebel actually

    one nasod might rise up, get other nasods to hear him/her...i think you know the story
    The nasod's judgement can also be clouded with emotions, since humans do that too..

    And, correct me if I'm wrong, I kinda think Adrian is scared of death.....isn't he in slumber all the time? (that's just my judgement but i could be totally wrong so please correct me if i am)
    Adrian never left or observed nasods and humans together, he never really got to know what the life was like
    To me, I don't think Adrian actually thought problems out
    Or faced the problems that came out him

    Feel free to point out ways I'm wrong
    Edit: I just had another thought

    Maybe Adrian wanted the nasods to understand humans? So they can relate and understand how humans think, and not point out the flaws of the human race?
    It kind of works two ways..
    Maybe Adrian wanted to let the nasods and humans bond...but he was naive to think emotions might work
    We've all seen what Sariel has become, so maybe his wish was to let the nasods feel some of humanity's, uh, nicer? emotions?
    Maybe he just wanted the two races to bond together
    I'll never know
    :v
    halp me
    Last edited by Vilvana-solace-; 01-28-2019, 01:36 AM.

    Comment


    • xEclipsa-solace-
      xEclipsa-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      to clarify sariel is like that due to the moonstone/dark el

    • Vilvana-solace-
      Vilvana-solace- commented
      Editing a comment
      Oo, tyy
      I need to read more of their backstories
  • Class: {{esusrinfo_class386396}}
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    #3
    Well, to be honest, taking the "Emotion" as a base for understanding is like taking a huge risk, a double-edge sword. And this is base on what Adrian envisioned Nasod to live, we already know how efficient Adam was and would stop at nothing to achieve such thing, and without understanding the morality of humans, it might even lead to some fatal reaction.

    Sure, making them having emotion will open the risk to them seeing their race being enslaved and treated as objects, but also open up the possibility for them to understand human and live in harmony with them. I think this is why Adrian put "Emotion" first and foremost to Eve and teach her positive emotions about human, since she would be one of the top among her race, the influence she spread would be much more effective.

    The fact about conflict isn't only limited to emotion, some of the scifi movies downright made the AI rebelled against humanity or doing devastating thing because those were the most "effective" way due to how they were programmed. "Emotion" might leads to various conflict, but it is also easy influenced by others and is much easier to come across rather than some technical terms. Hell, betrayal and stuffs already happened between Herbaon and Herjuno before as the former disposed of the latter due to the anger of betraying Adrian (or am I wrong and Adrian ordered him to?).

    Tbh, Adrian thought things out too much as a human and want to view the Nasod as the same as human too, which turned out pretty well for him since Eve managed to get onto the good side of humanity and so did the Nasods in Elysion afterward. Just think if Eve actually developed her emotion during the Nasod War. So yeah, it's a ridiculously high risk double-edged blade.

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    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class386437}}
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      #4
      Asimov's law set is flawed and with loopholes.
      If Nasods were to be given that law set Adrian would be held responsible and stigmatized as a villain because of the robots' actions even if they were harmless.

      The way a computer thinks is complicated. Asimov's law set is to be interpreted in descending order which is very important. .
      If someone would just go to any bot and be like "ayy give me access to those dangerous tools" they have no right to complain since they're being law 2-ed. As a bot you have no power to deny them access because you don't know what they will do.
      If by any chance a friendly humanoid species were to live between humans and order a Nasod, when said robot doesn't obey law one they would call the bots being rogue and blow them up.
      Law sets can be even worse if someone would just somehow upload a law 0 which overrides the other 3 laws. And we know it would kinda happen because this is fiction.

      Without emotions they don't know sarcasm, they don't know about evil intentions or holding something dear.
      The best they can do is to stay neutral at all times.
      Giving them emotions when they're being used to do some tasks won't make them think they're being slaved. Adrian made Nasods and were likely to be programmed to make human life and the place where they live better.

      Giving them Asimov's law set would be kinda bad. Giving the Nasods a law set in which can benefit both Nasods and humans while covering Asimov's loopholes would be better but still not the best plan.

      Comment


      • xEclipsa-solace-
        xEclipsa-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        lol you kinda reminded me of i, robot
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class386445}}
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      #5
      Originally posted by Vilvana-solace- View Post
      Short Answer: No I think he made the wrong choice.
      Long answer:
      If they get emotions - then the nasod/robot thingies can become selfish - thus how wars can start etc
      Actually IF they had emotions - they have a higher likelihood to fight back imo
      they would feel anger to the humans that are enslaving them - they would rise up and rebel actually

      one nasod might rise up, get other nasods to hear him/her...i think you know the story
      The nasod's judgement can also be clouded with emotions, since humans do that too..

      And, correct me if I'm wrong, I kinda think Adrian is scared of death.....isn't he in slumber all the time? (that's just my judgement but i could be totally wrong so please correct me if i am)
      Adrian never left or observed nasods and humans together, he never really got to know what the life was like
      To me, I don't think Adrian actually thought problems out
      Or faced the problems that came out him

      Feel free to point out ways I'm wrong
      Edit: I just had another thought

      Maybe Adrian wanted the nasods to understand humans? So they can relate and understand how humans think, and not point out the flaws of the human race?
      It kind of works two ways..
      Maybe Adrian wanted to let the nasods and humans bond...but he was naive to think emotions might work
      We've all seen what Sariel has become, so maybe his wish was to let the nasods feel some of humanity's, uh, nicer? emotions?
      Maybe he just wanted the two races to bond together
      I'll never know
      :v
      halp me
      Yeah I think so too. Giving them emotions would make them even more prone to rebel and wanting to end their slavery.

      Originally posted by ErillePurrle-solace- View Post
      Well, to be honest, taking the "Emotion" as a base for understanding is like taking a huge risk, a double-edge sword. And this is base on what Adrian envisioned Nasod to live, we already know how efficient Adam was and would stop at nothing to achieve such thing, and without understanding the morality of humans, it might even lead to some fatal reaction.

      Sure, making them having emotion will open the risk to them seeing their race being enslaved and treated as objects, but also open up the possibility for them to understand human and live in harmony with them. I think this is why Adrian put "Emotion" first and foremost to Eve and teach her positive emotions about human, since she would be one of the top among her race, the influence she spread would be much more effective.

      The fact about conflict isn't only limited to emotion, some of the scifi movies downright made the AI rebelled against humanity or doing devastating thing because those were the most "effective" way due to how they were programmed. "Emotion" might leads to various conflict, but it is also easy influenced by others and is much easier to come across rather than some technical terms. Hell, betrayal and stuffs already happened between Herbaon and Herjuno before as the former disposed of the latter due to the anger of betraying Adrian (or am I wrong and Adrian ordered him to?).

      Tbh, Adrian thought things out too much as a human and want to view the Nasod as the same as human too, which turned out pretty well for him since Eve managed to get onto the good side of humanity and so did the Nasods in Elysion afterward. Just think if Eve actually developed her emotion during the Nasod War. So yeah, it's a ridiculously high risk double-edged blade.
      Yeah but except that at the time before Nasod War, Adrian was just a scientist who was paid by others to develop and creating the Nasods. He didn’t own the Nasods he created/help creating.

      For example if builders and architects were paid to design and building a house, would the house belong to them after they built it? No, the house would belong to the ones who paid the others to build it.

      Human’s stance at the time was that there was no such thing as a Nasod race, the A.I.s and the bodies hosting them were properties.

      Herbaon didn’t betray Herjuno tho. Adrian discarded Astro Boy then he built Herbaon to replace him. The one who deliberately betrayed the authority of Atlas-Elysion was Science Dekal, who was a collaborator and Perrihart Solace’s ♥♥♥♥♥. Many of the high grade Atlas-Elysion Nasods having emotions.

      So yeah, I don’t think the ones possessing emotions would be more loyal than the ones who didn’t have them.

      Originally posted by Atillart-solace- View Post
      Asimov's law set is flawed and with loopholes.
      If Nasods were to be given that law set Adrian would be held responsible and stigmatized as a villain because of the robots' actions even if they were harmless.

      The way a computer thinks is complicated. Asimov's law set is to be interpreted in descending order which is very important. .
      If someone would just go to any bot and be like "ayy give me access to those dangerous tools" they have no right to complain since they're being law 2-ed. As a bot you have no power to deny them access because you don't know what they will do.
      If by any chance a friendly humanoid species were to live between humans and order a Nasod, when said robot doesn't obey law one they would call the bots being rogue and blow them up.
      Law sets can be even worse if someone would just somehow upload a law 0 which overrides the other 3 laws. And we know it would kinda happen because this is fiction.

      Without emotions they don't know sarcasm, they don't know about evil intentions or holding something dear.
      The best they can do is to stay neutral at all times.
      Giving them emotions when they're being used to do some tasks won't make them think they're being slaved. Adrian made Nasods and were likely to be programmed to make human life and the place where they live better.

      Giving them Asimov's law set would be kinda bad. Giving the Nasods a law set in which can benefit both Nasods and humans while covering Asimov's loopholes would be better but still not the best plan.
      You’re implying that Adrian Nasod wasn’t already vilified in Elrios after Nasod War. It was not stated in game regarding people’s opinions regarding him, other than the Nasods who revered him, otherwise they wouldn’t call themselves as “Nasod race”.

      Also I admit Three laws of robotic solution is not perfect. But it is still far safer than having the robots actively and purposely aggressive toward humans.

      Moreover I don’t think the humans at the time thought much about benefits of Nasods. One advantage of robots over humans employees is that you don’t need to pay wages for the robots.

      Regarding human’s benefits when Nasods possessing emotions, yes they could better understand humans, but there are disadvantages too such as lower labor efficiency. The Nasods with emotions need an extra amount of energy to run their emotion circuits/components which creating emotions compared to the ones without.
      Last edited by Tyrannicide-solace-; 01-31-2019, 03:04 AM.
      "I hereby declare:...the remnants of the high nobility who plan to reverse the flow of history and steal by force the rights that the people have established will receive a suitable repayment for this atrocity." - Reinhard von Lohengramm.

      Comment


      • xEclipsa-solace-
        xEclipsa-solace- commented
        Editing a comment
        "The Nasods with emotions need an extra amount of energy to run their emotion circuits/components which creating emotions compared to the ones without."

        this is only for eve. since eve is gen 0/1 she required an el engine, however since the elysion nasods are gen 3 their specs are more efficient thus requiring less power. but what makes eve better is that she can evolve unlike the others.


        as for the other stuff you have to remember that conflict comes before peace and that is already happening with the nasods in laby's story, so the benefit of them having emotions ultimately ends up good
    • Class: {{esusrinfo_class388986}}
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      #6
      Huh. Interesting subject. I'll drop my two cents as well.

      Now, first of all, the Three Laws of Robotics and their usefulness here... It's been ages since I read anything of Asimov, as in, literally more than a decade... I'd give it around 12-15 years if I tried to go for an estimate. However, unless I'm mistaken, I remember that there was this one Pre-Foundation book, with that one Earth detective and that Solarian woman who played around with the brain of one of her robots. That particular robot got the ability to feel emotions, among other things, and came up with a plan that steadily destroyed Earth, for the sole purpose of encouraging humanity to spread to the start. Putting that plan into motion literally killed him, because it forced him to go against the laws of robotics, but if my memory is correct, he essentially saved humanity with his actions, because the dominant powers at the time like the Solarians were stagnating and even regressing in some aspects.

      The point of that little trip down memory lane? 1 - The laws themselves are clearly imperfect. 2 - Even Asimov believed that to understand humans, you need to be able to think and feel like humans.

      This is likely what Adrian Nasod was aiming for as well. For his creations to be able to understand and coexist with humans as an actual people, rather than just slaved. Furthermore, it's pretty obvious that he wanted the Nasod to be an actual race, and not just tools. What he did later with Elysion is pretty much proof of this, but so is the fact that if all you want is precise tools, you genuinely don't need to create self-aware AI tech. Of course, it's hard to say how the power of El affected the whole process, but the point still stands. Even today, we have very capable computers that do amazing things, and our automatization capabilities rise every year... and we're still far from a true AI like what's depicted in Sci-Fi, and it's unlikely that humanity will create anything like that any time soon... partly because it's genuinely not needed.

      To that end, to have more than just machines, you need feelings and emotions... even if they're not quite exactly like the ones humans feel. Being able to understand affection, desire and more is important, if you want to actually create a race that can coexist with humanity, elves, and the other races of Elrios.

      Furthermore, there's the other end of argument as well. Logic doesn't care. Do you know what logic would dictate for efficient management of resources and population? Disposal of individuals that can't contribute to society of any way, among other things. Past a certain age where you can't work or contribute intellectually? You're factually useless. Irrecoverable mental illness? Factually useless and a drain on resources that can be used elsewhere. This can be taken even further with selective breeding. Minimalist living conditions. Carefully regulated time tables, exercise regimes, nutrient consumption...

      From a purely logical point of view, humanity is horribly inefficient, illogical, self-destructive and wasteful. Do you really want to think about what a purely logical AI would think about our society or any society present in Elrios? Because I assure you, it would not be capable of comprehending the good parts, the beauty of music, the art within making a meal taste good, the amazing things that good and just people did for their fellow men and women...

      Yes, emotions can often lead us in illogical directions if we let them rule us, yes, they can also bring about evil and bad... but they also bring about good and beauty. Without them, you might not have "evil", but you also won't have "good", because you can't have "beautiful" without there being "ugly".

      So to conclude my two cents on the subject... I believe that Adrian Nasod did the right thing by focusing on giving Eve emotions, because it was those emotions that allowed her to bond with the El Search Party, and it's those emotions that allowed her to want her people to coexist with the rest of Elrios, and it was those emotions that allow her to see Moby and Remi as more than mere tools, the same as all other Nasod.
      Obsessive CEm main. Dedicated summoner. I hate arena, but I'll still do it for events and consumables. That said, I will just not fight 95% of the time I see OoR or Eclipse.

      --Currently re-organizing after my 2-ish month break. Might take a while, cuz I'm lazy...--

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      • Class: {{esusrinfo_class389068}}
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        #7
        Originally posted by Daetia-solace- View Post
        Huh. Interesting subject. I'll drop my two cents as well.

        Now, first of all, the Three Laws of Robotics and their usefulness here... It's been ages since I read anything of Asimov, as in, literally more than a decade... I'd give it around 12-15 years if I tried to go for an estimate. However, unless I'm mistaken, I remember that there was this one Pre-Foundation book, with that one Earth detective and that Solarian woman who played around with the brain of one of her robots. That particular robot got the ability to feel emotions, among other things, and came up with a plan that steadily destroyed Earth, for the sole purpose of encouraging humanity to spread to the start. Putting that plan into motion literally killed him, because it forced him to go against the laws of robotics, but if my memory is correct, he essentially saved humanity with his actions, because the dominant powers at the time like the Solarians were stagnating and even regressing in some aspects.

        The point of that little trip down memory lane? 1 - The laws themselves are clearly imperfect. 2 - Even Asimov believed that to understand humans, you need to be able to think and feel like humans.
        I don't think it was a robot which tried to destroy Earth. It was an action by 2 human Spacers (Amadiro and Mandamus). Their actions were discovered by 2 robots (R. Daneel Olivaw and 1 other) but they couldn't just kill those 2 Spacers because they complied with the First Law. However Amadiro wanted to immediately increase the radiation level from the crust layer of the Earth and it would kill everyone on the planet. He was stopped and having memory erased by those 2 robots because that method would not kill him while at the same time stopped his actions (which if performed would results in almost everyone on Earth being killed).

        However Mandamus's intention and action was different. He wanted to raise radiation level on Earth gradually over decades, so that would drive humans out into space and settling more uninhabited planets out there in the galaxy, and allowing them time to prepare and carry out the plan. The robots allowed him to carry out that action.

        Moreover the Settlers - the second phases of humans leaving Earth (the first phase humans were called Spacers) to colonize the galaxy, they eschewed robots and later on they stopped using robots completely, compared to the Spacers who were extremely reliant on robots (thousands of robots serving 1 Spacer on average).

        And it was achieved with the helps from the other robots such as R. Daneel Olivaw, which helped human creating the Galactic Empire and Gaia, which don't need robots. So in the series, as you can see, even the robots came up with the conclusion by themselves that humans need a society which can function without robots.

        Originally posted by Daetia-solace- View Post
        This is likely what Adrian Nasod was aiming for as well. For his creations to be able to understand and coexist with humans as an actual people, rather than just slaved. Furthermore, it's pretty obvious that he wanted the Nasod to be an actual race, and not just tools. What he did later with Elysion is pretty much proof of this, but so is the fact that if all you want is precise tools, you genuinely don't need to create self-aware AI tech. Of course, it's hard to say how the power of El affected the whole process, but the point still stands. Even today, we have very capable computers that do amazing things, and our automatization capabilities rise every year... and we're still far from a true AI like what's depicted in Sci-Fi, and it's unlikely that humanity will create anything like that any time soon... partly because it's genuinely not needed.

        To that end, to have more than just machines, you need feelings and emotions... even if they're not quite exactly like the ones humans feel. Being able to understand affection, desire and more is important, if you want to actually create a race that can coexist with humanity, elves, and the other races of Elrios.
        Real life don't have or use El energy, and the Nasods were said to need El energy to function. So I think the El energy plays the most major role in easily creating the A.I. I think it came at the cost of making them much more inferior compared to the anticipated real life A.I in the future.

        Like I mentioned above. Adrian Nasod was a scientist, who was paid to develop and creating the Nasods. The fees needed for his researches were sponsored by other benefactors, the Nasods were created by the money of the others. He didn't own the Nasods, and if the ones who were the owners of the Nasods didn't want the Nasods having emotions, becoming a race, can determine their fates independently from humans... then Adrian having no rights to violate what the owners of the Nasods actually wanted.

        If the humans who paid for the creations of the Nasods but only later for them to run away from humans and even coming back to annihilate them, would anyone poured their resources, moneys, efforts, times... into bringing the Nasods into existences at the first place?

        Your example of Elysion also didn't help your arguments much. Why? Because even when there were no humans there to enslave the Nasods, there were still slaves: Nasods enslaving other Nasods. There are many inferior Nasods workers and warriors who worked and fought under the control of other high-grade Nasods.

        Or how the Nasod Rebellion broke out at the first place? The A.I Adam controlled other Nasods to fight humans. It was not like all Nasods came to the same conclusion en masse, it was more like King Nasod's controlled them to rebel. So King Nasod's revolution was just a changing in management: from human enslaving Nasods into Nasods enslaving other Nasods - a revolution betrayed.

        Or please answer this simple question: why there are only three living humans at Elysion: Adrian, Solace and El Lady?

        Originally posted by Daetia-solace- View Post
        Furthermore, there's the other end of argument as well. Logic doesn't care. Do you know what logic would dictate for efficient management of resources and population? Disposal of individuals that can't contribute to society of any way, among other things. Past a certain age where you can't work or contribute intellectually? You're factually useless. Irrecoverable mental illness? Factually useless and a drain on resources that can be used elsewhere. This can be taken even further with selective breeding. Minimalist living conditions. Carefully regulated time tables, exercise regimes, nutrient consumption...

        From a purely logical point of view, humanity is horribly inefficient, illogical, self-destructive and wasteful. Do you really want to think about what a purely logical AI would think about our society or any society present in Elrios? Because I assure you, it would not be capable of comprehending the good parts, the beauty of music, the art within making a meal taste good, the amazing things that good and just people did for their fellow men and women...

        Yes, emotions can often lead us in illogical directions if we let them rule us, yes, they can also bring about evil and bad... but they also bring about good and beauty. Without them, you might not have "evil", but you also won't have "good", because you can't have "beautiful" without there being "ugly".

        So to conclude my two cents on the subject... I believe that Adrian Nasod did the right thing by focusing on giving Eve emotions, because it was those emotions that allowed her to bond with the El Search Party, and it's those emotions that allowed her to want her people to coexist with the rest of Elrios, and it was those emotions that allow her to see Moby and Remi as more than mere tools, the same as all other Nasod.
        Yeah but to prevent the robots from removing the "undesirables", the three laws would be sufficient. With emotions, it depends. Just observing humans who have emotions. Do emotions stop them from deciding to kill other living beings?

        The humans and other biological races do have a definite edge over Nasods, which they can put on the table: ability to manipulate El energy, allowing them to maintain the El crystal. The Nasods wouldn't be able to maintain and stabilize the El Crystal/shards if the humans and other biological races were out of the picture. Killing all humans would ensure mutual assured destruction (MAD) for both humans and Nasods. However the humans can survive just fine without the Nasods. That alone provides them with the most heavy leverage for the Nasods to consider.

        Your example - Eve having emotions so she would want to coexist with the rest of Elrios, that sounds good, but it is actually much more dependent on if the people from Elrios were willing to coexist with the Nasods to begin with. What does Eve have to put on the table when negotiates with the dominant races and existing institutions of Elrios, beside the the plain promise of "making Elrios great again"? Also it was just her, there is absolutely nothing ensures that she wouldn't change her mind later on, or all other Nasods would think and act the same as her.

        So at the end of the day, what did it matter? The cause of Nasod Rebellion was stated to be triggered by an energy crisis, as the Nasods and humans fought over the remaining dwindling supply of El energy. Adrian Nasod couldn't predict and having any backup plan for El energy decline situation. Having emotions in that situation, the Nasods would only have even more motivations to fight even harder to preserve their very existences, as Nasods with emotions consumed more energy and working with less efficiency:

        'Human emotion' was excluded from Adam to make the code development more effective and this could have been the source of this problem.


        (quoted from Adrian memoirs).
        "I hereby declare:...the remnants of the high nobility who plan to reverse the flow of history and steal by force the rights that the people have established will receive a suitable repayment for this atrocity." - Reinhard von Lohengramm.

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        • Class: {{esusrinfo_class389884}}
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          #8
          I won't argue over the accuracy of the information from Asimov's works, since as I said, it's been a VERY long time since I touched anything from it, and my memory was never the greatest. I'd argue over your interpretation of some of the things there, but I see little point in it, as this is just a tangent anyway. I'll just say this. Given the tone of a number of works, I'd say that among other things, there was a debate over when one crosses the line with their creations, and needs to stop treating them as a "what", and instead, needs to treat them as a "who", with all the consequences of what this distinction implies.

          I'd say that's the important part that needs to be considered first and foremost. Whether a society can function with or without robots, and whether said society should do so, is extremely debatable, because it's difficult to predict how things will work out in such a scenario. Add in magic, the power of El, the power of Henir, Demon Energy... and all of a sudden, it becomes rather difficult to predict this based on the realities of our society.

          After all, in our world, no matter how smart or skilled you are, you can't become a living WMD. But we have just that in Elrios, with individuals like the El Masters, the Demon Lords and the various Henir Fanatics or beings like Drabaki or Eun. Hell, at this point in the story, odds are that all the members of the El Search Party qualify, regardless of class.

          The point of that tangent is to remind everyone that the people in Elrios have very different factors influencing their society and how their people think. The writers of the Game Lore don't always take this into account properly, if at all, but this also means that analyzing the motives of the various individuals, as well as the consequences of their decisions, is very difficult and filled with subjectivity. After all, there are plenty of instances in the story that could have gone any number of ways, but didn't simply because of authorial decisions. All that ultimately means that no one can really make an absolute argument on whether Adrian was "right" or "wrong" to decide to add emotions to his creations, or part of them.

          Though the story would imply that he was indeed correct to do so, given what's happening with Eve, but even THAT is debatable.

          Still, allow me to give some answer to some of the questions you threw my way.

          Or how the Nasod Rebellion broke out at the first place? The A.I Adam controlled other Nasods to fight humans. It was not like all Nasods came to the same conclusion en masse, it was more like King Nasod's controlled them to rebel. So King Nasod's revolution was just a changing in management: from human enslaving Nasods into Nasods enslaving other Nasods - a revolution betrayed.

          Or please answer this simple question: why there are only three living humans at Elysion: Adrian, Solace and El Lady?
          First of all, we don't have the full details of how the Nasod rebellion took place. These things are never super-straightforward even when you have just humans involved, even when you have singular events that you can point at that are the "start" of something, they're never the singular cause. Also, at the time, Eve was the ONLY Nasod to have the full emotion circuit. Indeed, there's no real indication that any other Nasod did at that point in time, at least, according to her story quests. It's not clear how many of the Elysion Nasods have emotion circuits either. Based on reactions and behavior, at least some of them, but we can't discount the possibility that in some of those potential examples, we're only dealing with simulated emotions, rather than the real thing like Eve.

          As for the last question. For one, we actually don't know if those three are the ONLY living humans in all of Elysion. We don't even really know how big all of Elysion even is. We certainly don't know if there aren't more people that are involved in some manner around Elysion. Plus, the story implies that a bunch of Debrians went there with Adrian, so it's not inconceivable that there's more. Even if there aren't, it's quite possible that Adrian wanted to keep his creations away from humanity. From his perspective, it may very well seem that humanity abused his creations, and that he was going to keep them out of their hands from then on and look over their growth in Elysion. Of course, that all went out the window when Solace popped up and Adrian allowed his greed to dictate his decisions. I think we can safely exclude Harnier from the equation, at least as a decision maker.

          Yeah but to prevent the robots from removing the "undesirables", the three laws would be sufficient. With emotions, it depends. Just observing humans who have emotions. Do emotions stop them from deciding to kill other living beings?

          The humans and other biological races do have a definite edge over Nasods, which they can put on the table: ability to manipulate El energy, allowing them to maintain the El crystal. The Nasods wouldn't be able to maintain and stabilize the El Crystal/shards if the humans and other biological races were out of the picture. Killing all humans would ensure mutual assured destruction (MAD) for both humans and Nasods. However the humans can survive just fine without the Nasods. That alone provides them with the most heavy leverage for the Nasods to consider.

          Your example - Eve having emotions so she would want to coexist with the rest of Elrios, that sounds good, but it is actually much more dependent on if the people from Elrios were willing to coexist with the Nasods to begin with. What does Eve have to put on the table when negotiates with the dominant races and existing institutions of Elrios, beside the the plain promise of "making Elrios great again"? Also it was just her, there is absolutely nothing ensures that she wouldn't change her mind later on, or all other Nasods would think and act the same as her.

          So at the end of the day, what did it matter? The cause of Nasod Rebellion was stated to be triggered by an energy crisis, as the Nasods and humans fought over the remaining dwindling supply of El energy. Adrian Nasod couldn't predict and having any backup plan for El energy decline situation. Having emotions in that situation, the Nasods would only have even more motivations to fight even harder to preserve their very existences, as Nasods with emotions consumed more energy and working with less efficiency:
          Ok, so, first of all, we have NO proof whatsoever that the Nasod wouldn't be able to stabilize the El or use its power in a way that's more efficient than the original El users. Given that a purely technological device was capable of maintaining and controlling the Henir rift underneath Elrianode in the Debrian lab, this indicates that it might very well be possible for the Nasod to achieve what the El Lady could through different means. The fact that that the system could be changed at all to the El Priestess system indicates that there's no one absolute way of stabilizing the El. Even Solace was able to help to briefly alter things using Diceon from Elysion to help rescue Elsword, and let's face it, Solace is many things, but a scientist he is not.

          Furthermore, according to what info we do have of the time-line, Adrian and a bunch of Debrians already left Elrios to Elysion before the Nasod War occurred... and the Nasod War was caused by humans and Nasod in equal measure. One can also easily argue that the humans are more at fault, since it was up to them to regulate their creations. It was up to them to teach them and prepare them. It was up to them to either make them into tools to perfection, and thus never give them the ability to choose in the first place, or to take it all the way and start treating them as people, rather than things.

          Don't forget that it was the humans who used them more and more. It was the humans who armed them and created armies of them to fight their wars. It was humanity and its leaders that created the whole situation. In this case, the issue is that Adrian gave the Nasod the capacity to choose and grow in the first place, that he made them into people, rather than simply keeping them as tools. However, this was his goal from the get-go if I understood the story correctly. Ultimately, all the OTHER things he did with the Nasod were secondary to his goal of creating artificial people. Though, in typical Elsword fashion, we don't have a very clear reason as to WHY, or what he expected to see happen when the Nasod actually became a race of beings, rather than just mere machines.

          After all, if Adrian simply wanted to stop Adam from going rogue, all he'd have needed to do was to shut him down and dismantle him. At the point where he noticed that the AI was growing beyond expected parameters, he could have definitely done that. However, if he did... would he have had any guarantee that no one wouldn't start things over again anyway? Could he have been sure that his sponsors wouldn't have overruled his concerns and started Adam up anyway, possibly making things worse? Ultimately, Pandora's box had already been opened. With Eve and her emotions, there was at least a chance that there would be Nasods out there that could not only understand humans, but be willing to help regulate their own kind, just like humans are capable of regulating themselves, even when inevitably, bad individuals pop up. Let's not forget that in the end, the Nasod War might have weakened the El, but it was the Henir Order that caused it to explode. In the end, Humanity is its own worst enemy long before Nasod are added in the equation.

          Lastly. You're looking at things from the wrong angle. By your logic, Elsword should have simply killed Eve when he met her. But he didn't, he offered to be her friend. Why? Because he was able to recognize that even then, Eve was not just a machine, she was a person, and the Nasods that would be made from her, the kingdom she'd establish, would be a kingdom of people, not of machines. You don't kill people just because they "don't have anything to offer you", especially when it's rather blatantly untrue. But even if it were, you can coexist with another species, simply because "It's the right thing to do.", which is something that our protagonists were clearly able to see by accepting a Nasod and even a Demon in their group, even when they had no guarantee that they'd actually offer anything of worth to said group.

          This can be applied to a larger scale as well. Humanity shouldn't look at the Nasods as tools gone rogue, but rather, as creations that grew up to become Peers.

          So. My personal conclusion to all this?

          If you judge Adrian by his ability to create tools, then he's a complete idiot. He should have never created Adam to begin with, if he wanted to have just tools.

          However, since I believe that his goal was from the start, the creation of people... then I think he made the right choice. Was it necessarily the BEST choice? Perhaps not. But a race you can reason with is better than a bunch of unfeeling machines any day. Perhaps you'll see this as my idealism speaking, but that's my perspective and I'm sticking to it.
          Obsessive CEm main. Dedicated summoner. I hate arena, but I'll still do it for events and consumables. That said, I will just not fight 95% of the time I see OoR or Eclipse.

          --Currently re-organizing after my 2-ish month break. Might take a while, cuz I'm lazy...--

          Comment


          • ErillePurrle-solace-
            Editing a comment
            Tbh, now that I think about, we just have to find a definitive answer to the ESP lines back when they found Eve based on her CBS comics and maybe we know if it's right or not...especially Rena's and Raven's line, since then Eve showed no sign of hostility and was merely lost...and was spooked by Elsword so he got a ♥♥♥♥♥ slap.

            "She's no different than our enemies!" - Raven

            "Still...I don't think she's a bad kid..." - Rena
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          #9
          What about the 3 laws then? You mentioned the details regarding the robots and the plan to make people to leave Earth to discount my points regarding whether would the 3 laws be safer compared to emotions, and I explained that it worked as intended, the robots made the decisions based on logic and in compliance with the 3 laws and not emotions.

          Ok, so, first of all, we have NO proof whatsoever that the Nasod wouldn't be able to stabilize the El or use its power in a way that's more efficient than the original El users. Given that a purely technological device was capable of maintaining and controlling the Henir rift underneath Elrianode in the Debrian lab, this indicates that it might very well be possible for the Nasod to achieve what the El Lady could through different means. The fact that that the system could be changed at all to the El Priestess system indicates that there's no one absolute way of stabilizing the El. Even Solace was able to help to briefly alter things using Diceon from Elysion to help rescue Elsword, and let's face it, Solace is many things, but a scientist he is not.
          If you want to use that point then first you have to prove it. It was clearly stated that the Debrians lacked the ability to manipulate El energy compared to Elrians, so they had to resort to technologies to gap the bridge and creating substitutes to make up for their inability to manipulate El energy like how Elrians could. The Debrians and the Nasods simply couldn't manipulate El energy to the extent as what Elrians could.

          I failed to grasp what does the Henir rift example having anything to do with El Lady's power. The El Priestesses system was formulated and operated by people with innate ability to manipulate El. The act of Solace injecting Elsword with energy from Diceon so that he wouldn’t be absorbed by the El Crystal right away was not achieved through scientific means anyway.

          Furthermore, according to what info we do have of the time-line, Adrian and a bunch of Debrians already left Elrios to Elysion before the Nasod War occurred... and the Nasod War was caused by humans and Nasod in equal measure. One can also easily argue that the humans are more at fault, since it was up to them to regulate their creations. It was up to them to teach them and prepare them. It was up to them to either make them into tools to perfection, and thus never give them the ability to choose in the first place, or to take it all the way and start treating them as people, rather than things.

          Don't forget that it was the humans who used them more and more. It was the humans who armed them and created armies of them to fight their wars. It was humanity and its leaders that created the whole situation. In this case, the issue is that Adrian gave the Nasod the capacity to choose and grow in the first place, that he made them into people, rather than simply keeping them as tools. However, this was his goal from the get-go if I understood the story correctly. Ultimately, all the OTHER things he did with the Nasod were secondary to his goal of creating artificial people. Though, in typical Elsword fashion, we don't have a very clear reason as to WHY, or what he expected to see happen when the Nasod actually became a race of beings, rather than just mere machines.
          Yeah but I’m not here to vindicate the human’s evil deeds. In this thread I haven’t even stated or trying to prove that the humans are more morally upright or more righteous.

          However the humans have to win, because if they won, they could rebuild the nasods and both races wouldn’t be extinct. However if the nasods won, there would be no El Lady and the El wouldn’t be saved, and both humans and nasods would become extinct.

          After all, if Adrian simply wanted to stop Adam from going rogue, all he'd have needed to do was to shut him down and dismantle him. At the point where he noticed that the AI was growing beyond expected parameters, he could have definitely done that. However, if he did... would he have had any guarantee that no one wouldn't start things over again anyway? Could he have been sure that his sponsors wouldn't have overruled his concerns and started Adam up anyway, possibly making things worse? Ultimately, Pandora's box had already been opened. With Eve and her emotions, there was at least a chance that there would be Nasods out there that could not only understand humans, but be willing to help regulate their own kind, just like humans are capable of regulating themselves, even when inevitably, bad individuals pop up. Let's not forget that in the end, the Nasod War might have weakened the El, but it was the Henir Order that caused it to explode. In the end, Humanity is its own worst enemy long before Nasod are added in the equation.
          They can’t simply just turn off Adam, as the A.I has a crucial role in running the economy and security. If they turned off Adam without anything to replace it right after, the economy and production activities would grind to a halt and collapse. At the time of Nasod Rebellion, Adrian didn’t have the replacement for Adam ready yet. He made Eve and having her learning things manually like a human, that resulted in her taking much longer until she was ready for the job of Adam.

          And Adam didn’t announce beforehand to the human before it went rogue. They didn’t expect it to go rogue and when it did, it was already too late.

          Lastly. You're looking at things from the wrong angle. By your logic, Elsword should have simply killed Eve when he met her. But he didn't, he offered to be her friend. Why? Because he was able to recognize that even then, Eve was not just a machine, she was a person, and the Nasods that would be made from her, the kingdom she'd establish, would be a kingdom of people, not of machines. You don't kill people just because they "don't have anything to offer you", especially when it's rather blatantly untrue. But even if it were, you can coexist with another species, simply because "It's the right thing to do.", which is something that our protagonists were clearly able to see by accepting a Nasod and even a Demon in their group, even when they had no guarantee that they'd actually offer anything of worth to said group.
          I think it’s you who have misunderstood. Even if Eve not joining with El gang, they didn’t need to kill her. They fought King Nasod and Nasod goons because they (deliberately) took the Ruben El and doing stuffs such as harming the Ponggos.. But Eve didn’t do any of that, she was asleep when those stuffs happened.

          More importantly, regarding Adrian’s plan for the Nasods. I think you misunderstood him. I have proved again and again that Adrian at first didn’t plan for the Nasods to be equal with humans and could determine their own fate. Or he could choose so if his customers and patrons determine otherwise, unless he developed and created the Nasods using his own properties and money.

          He created Adam to help creating and develop other Nasods.He didn’t even own the A.I and the Nasods manufactured by Adam. Only much later he discovered that there was something wrong with Adam and predicted that it would threaten mankind. Only by then that he tried to fix it. He created Eve to replace the A.I in the future.

          He intended for her to perform the same role of Adam, but with supposedly improved performance and security. Those were namely including creating and managing the nasods, so that they could… better serve humans. Yeah, at that time Adrian only prepared for her to work as a slave driver in the future, just like Adam.

          Pardon me but I can’t find any proof to suspect he decided otherwise than that. He said Eve would be “The Queen of Nasods”, and I thought that it’s obviously shouldn’t be taken at its face value. I think he meant it metaphorically.

          Adrian was just a scientist, a civilian under the justiciary of Elrian Kingdom. At the time of him speaking that line, do you think he has the rights to make anyone a ruler of a country?
          "I hereby declare:...the remnants of the high nobility who plan to reverse the flow of history and steal by force the rights that the people have established will receive a suitable repayment for this atrocity." - Reinhard von Lohengramm.

          Comment


          • ErillePurrle-solace-
            Editing a comment
            Tbh, this is going to length of "Detroit: Become Human" kind of discussion.

            For the part about Eve, reading Adrian's Memoir, it's obvious that Adrian was afraid of Adam doing things outside of what he knows about what Nasods have been doing, it's "fear", a basic human emotion. It led to an instinctual action that he needed to do something to prevent "bad event" to occur. Hence why he "decided" to make Eve, but the dialogue in the later part does showing him not really feel Eve as only a "backup" anymore (and I don't see any hinting at he was lying as the Nasod of Elysion arc came to an end either). He did create Eve as a "backup" at first, but as she developed, he too changed his view.

            It honestly started from there that the path "Nasod: Become Human" kind of way is opened up. Before, Adrian was just wanted to proof that Nasod can "think for themselves", which is pure logical, perfect logic with no flaws...And you know, perfection will eventually leads to downfall, because from the peak, there can only be a way down.

            And tbh, I couldn't find anything to proof that he didn't change his mind midway either, as he designed Eve really similar to a human child, showed sympathy for her to lead a life that would be "hard" because of the "Growth AI" she has and hoped that she would be a bridge to understanding between Nasod and Human...because with that "flawless logic", either the Nasods will deem human as inefficient and try to get rid of them...or humans started to feel insecure about the Nasod "perfection" and started to diss them to create another race of slave from scratch...And I think that former already happened in a way already, before Eve could fully do anything about it anyway.

          • Tyrannicide-solace-
            Editing a comment
            @Erille I think if Nasods don’t have emotions, humans would still have something unique to them which they can rely on to convince themselves that as least they’re “superior” to Nasods in that aspect.

            However if the Nasods possessing emotions too, then human can’t even rely on that crutch and that would make humans become even more redundant in the eyes of the Nasods, and the robots would even have more proofs to prove their “perfection” (in your words) and improving the chance of them disposing of the “redundancies” without a second thought.

            So yeah, again, I failed to grasp how Nasods with emotions would make a difference (for the better for humans) here.

          • ErillePurrle-solace-
            Editing a comment
            That is not a problem, as you can see with Eve already. If the Nasod don't have emotion, they will have the perfection of logic, but their flaw is that perfection. But if they finally have emotion like humans, that is already a flaw in their existence, hence there is no longer "perfection" in them.

            Eve messed up because she has "emotion" and it create flaw in her existence, but due to that flaw, that hole that is left in her that drive her to improve and connects with other being despite everything happened. Normal Nasods wouldn't do that, they would just work with the perfect logic even if it mean breaking down.

            Also, the human here still have many things over Nasods though, this is Elrios, human isn't that frail. The link between the element and spirit is also a factor that Nasods can't really perceive. The Nasod used what energy they have from their core, either converting from the environment or built in factor, to realize their power. Human on the other hand, can directly tap into the nature of element and spirit to improve their power. It's 2 different thing, atm the only Nasod that is capable of being actually influenced by the "spiritual" side of the element is Eve because she actually went inside the El...but that is because she's the only Nasod that the story is going. We don't see if other Nasods that is her summons can be influenced by the El since there are nothing said about them even though they are designed to be humanoid, but never mentioned before if Eve actually implemented something similar to her "Growth A.I" onto them or not.
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